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 Spear as main weapon: could be useful?

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Skaw
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PostSubject: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 11:50

I was creating my warband (Ostland) and thinking about all the choices of equipment. The spears are used to Young Bloods and their equivalent, because it's cheap and as they're 'green'. So you hope that if you're charged, they'll get a 'lucky' roll knocking the enemy before they attack. But..why can't be useful to more experienced heroes?

Let me give you an example: One heroe with HA4, F4, A2 stats

A good combination could be sword+hammer, right? 3 attacks, one parry, you can stunt easily..

But why not an spear? Or better, an Ithilmar spear. Yes, 2 attacks but let's explain the benefits:
You always attack first if you're charged. Keep in mind that you roll TWO attacks of HA4 F4 before being charged. Good odds. (correct me if I'm wrong but I think not)

Ithilmar spear means +1 to I, so probably you'll be attacking first at the second, third....turns.

So, you're losing one extra attack, but you ALWAYS attack first. And all here we know that the one who attack first, attacks twice (or if you're luck, you only need one turn)


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Mortimer
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 12:07

I always took the spear as overpriced ... the errata no longer has you strike first as such as both the spear wielder and the charger 'strike first' so they strike in initiative order ... making only high initiative users of a spear very practical (I usually ignore this as there is plenty of models with spears which look neat, and sometimes thats more fun than the most practical warrior).
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 12:39

Mortimer wrote:
I always took the spear as overpriced ... the errata no longer has you strike first as such as both the spear wielder and the charger 'strike first' so they strike in initiative order ... making only high initiative users of a spear very practical (I usually ignore this as there is plenty of models with spears which look neat, and sometimes thats more fun than the most practical warrior).

Thats standard crap GW errata. They dont fix their mistakes, just spell out their silly rules so theres a clear (but silly) way to play. I will continue to play spear > charger. I agree that alot of spear armed models look the biz. I recently bought some legend of the five rings miniatures and hardly any of them are armed with katana (though thats what they have). One has a two handed weapon, one has a spear and one has a katana. Just looks better then 3 similar sculpts
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Master
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Fri 4 Dec 2009 - 9:32

I don't like basing my warriors weapons for what they should have after a lot of advances.

I prefer my green warriors to be good, and then when they get experience, rip of their weapons and glue on new weapons.

Spears are ok later in the game, but stil doesn't trump a two-hander or two weapons with lightning reflexes IMO.

So spear has sorta lost the idea, because it isn't good for unexperienced warriors as you'll be counting on 1 lucky attack, and it isn't good for experienced warrirors, as you can take one skill to do exactly the same.
Now for warriors without access to speed skills (who are quite rare), I could see it work.
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Skaw
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Fri 4 Dec 2009 - 9:44

Master wrote:

Spears are ok later in the game, but stil doesn't trump a two-hander or two weapons with lightning reflexes IMO.

So spear has sorta lost the idea, because it isn't good for unexperienced warriors as you'll be counting on 1 lucky attack, and it isn't good for experienced warrirors, as you can take one skill to do exactly the same.
Now for warriors without access to speed skills (who are quite rare), I could see it work.

That's the problem. As Ostlander, my Leader have access as my Priest, but the Blood Brothers as well a hechmen who rolled TLGT can't chose Speed skills (well, henchmen can, but then I can only chose one skills group more).

But you said: As you can take one skill to do exactly the same.

Well, yes, but instead of use 2 maces with lightning reflexes I can stick to spear an, instead of LR, chose Mighty Blow to benefit of his +1 S. Keep in mind too, that the spear would had +1 to I for 15 mo, so you ALWAYS will attack first with similar enemies.

3 attacks striking first or 2 attacks, striking first, +1 to I and +1S?

That's the question
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squattingmouse
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Sat 5 Dec 2009 - 20:56

My Averland warband has it's 3 starting Mountain Guards armed with spears for the following reasons -

1) Their above average weapon skill means they are more likely to hit a charging enemy henchman on their first strike (we play it as mrbretonnia does). Means Opponents are sometimes hesitant to charge meaning I pick when the ruck starts.

2) Later on in the campaign when they've picked up some upgrades with a bit of luck +1s, +1ws and +1a they become rather dangerous.

3) They look cool in my opinion...
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blindrage19
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Thu 13 May 2010 - 7:27

A simple solution to this is purchase the charcter a spear and sword. This way when charged they use the spear with 2 attacks. If the combat lasts more rounds switch to sword and dagger and use the 3 attacks. I have a halberdier armed as such.
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CygnusMaximus
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Thu 13 May 2010 - 7:48

blindrage19 wrote:
A simple solution to this is purchase the charcter a spear and sword. This way when charged they use the spear with 2 attacks. If the combat lasts more rounds switch to sword and dagger and use the 3 attacks. I have a halberdier armed as such.

Except (with the exception of the Lance and similar weapons) you can't change your weapon after the combat has started - otherwise you'd see tons of warriors toting flails around with their great weapons so they could strike first when they charged.

We reduced the cost of spears to 5gc - it helps a bit but they're still not often seen around here...
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playtable
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Sat 15 May 2010 - 16:49

They NEVER should have changed the rule in the first rule book. The origional intent was right. "A warrior with a spear strikes first, even if charged, because the long shaft of the spear allows him to thrust it at oncoming enemies before they have a chance to hit him."
The only exception should have been if the charger has lightning reflexes.

The new rule makes spears 90% useless and overpriced otherwise.

Unless you can convince your gaming group to house rule back to the origional rule, I would recomend to never use them.
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Sat 15 May 2010 - 17:06

[quote="Skaw"]
Master wrote:
Well, yes, but instead of use 2 maces with lightning reflexes I can stick to spear an, instead of LR, chose Mighty Blow to benefit of his +1 S. Keep in mind too, that the spear would had +1 to I for 15 mo, so you ALWAYS will attack first with similar enemies.

My sentiments exactly.

I always take a group of henchmen with spears when playing mercs, as I both think they look cool, but also are pretty great. In conjunction with a shield, I can even afford them some protection, making them even better in defensive situations, and when taking down lower level enemies. I wouldnt rest my warband strategy on them, but they do fill an important role; Psychologolical, fortification and sweeping lesser enemies,
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Tzapquiel
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Sat 15 May 2010 - 23:43

Mortimer wrote:
I always took the spear as overpriced ... the errata no longer has you strike first as such as both the spear wielder and the charger 'strike first' so they strike in initiative order ... making only high initiative users of a spear very practical (I usually ignore this as there is plenty of models with spears which look neat, and sometimes thats more fun than the most practical warrior).
I like the simplicity in treating all instances of Strike First as equal, and letting them cancel each other out if both warriors have something that would let them strike first; but to make spears a more viable choice I suggest giving them a +1 bonus to Initiative, it has worked quite well for us.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Mon 17 May 2010 - 0:25

Um...but why is one simplicity (adding +1 to I) better than the other simplicity of a blanket strike first if charged? With both you have to remember 1 weapon specific thing.

Our group has had a couple of discussions of this lately (see above). No one has argued for the 'simple' strike first of the Living Rulebook. We had tried the Living Rulebook rule for a campaign or so. Since no one uses spears much, it didn't come up often until the skaven ran into a vampire... At present we are going to a modified rule that keeps the Living Rulebook's restrictions on not using another weapon in the off hand, but otherwise reverts to the printed rulebook.

One fix no one has suggested is using the LotR spear and pike rules...
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PostSubject: Re: Spear as main weapon: could be useful?   Today at 8:16

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