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 Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule

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Meister Ostalgie
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 3:52

Right now, our list looks like this:

'Normal' Animals'Abnormal' Animals
DogGiant Rats
Wardog*Giant Spiders
HorseCentigor
WarhorseDire Wolf
MuleSquigs
WolfWarhounds of Chaos
Elf riding steedWarhorse of Chaos
(trained) BearNightmare steed
RatMinotaur
Rat-ogre


However, take a look at this:

Rulebook on the Wardog wrote:
You could also use the profile below to represent one of the more exotic animals used by the warbands of Mordheim, such as trained bears, Chaos familiars or even fighting monkeys from the far-off Southlands!
So a Warhound of Chaos has the same Profile as a normal Wardog has, but it isn't considered as 'normal' at this point. My suggestion is that all Animals using the Wardog Profile are considered 'normal', as to overcome the possible 'cheating' of creating Chaos familiar based on the Wardog Profile, which is then considered 'Abnormal' due to their familiarity with Chaos. But its bascially a Wardog - just changed its fluff not to be affected by any Skill or Spell saying it affects 'normal' animals.

Note: please add / remove Animals in the list if you feel we're missing out on something!
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Thorwald
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 4:05

Rulebook on the Wardog wrote:
You could also use the profile below to represent one of the more exotic animals used by the warbands of Mordheim, such as trained bears, Chaos familiars or even fighting monkeys from the far-off Southlands!


Chaos familiar (when created) isn't 'normal' either, and it would appear in the Abnormal animals section.. It says you can use the PROFILE to create these animals, it does not say that henceforth they must be treated as 'normal', next to that it says exotic animals in the text. That's why we opended up this discussion in the first place.

Quote :
So a Warhound of Chaos has the same Profile as a normal Wardog has, but
it isn't considered as 'normal' at this point.

No it isn't for a good reason, (have you seen the dags?) these are evil creatures with mutated heads, all that was good and normal has left them.

Quote :
But its bascially a Wardog - just changed its
fluff not to be affected by any Skill or Spell saying it affects
'normal' animals.


We did not change the fluff, we specified the 'normal' animals. The Ostlander Animal friendship skill says 'normal' animal for a reason (else they would have left the word 'normal' out. Since they are a bunch of goody two shoes, a 'normal' animal would be friends with them. Hence the list. They can't be friends with Chaos Hounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 4:16

Great. I will change my Wardogs to Mutated Bears or something with the same profile as the Wardogs. That way I am sure no Spell or Skill mentioning 'normal' animals affect the behaviour of my equipment that fight like Henchmen.

Come on, try to follow my thoughts here, not just be a b*tch.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 4:31

Meister Ostalgie wrote:
Great. I will change my Wardogs to Mutated Bears or something with the same profile as the Wardogs. That way I am sure no Spell or Skill mentioning 'normal' animals affect the behaviour of my equipment that fight like Henchmen.

lol be my guest.. but I don't think Ostlanders can have Mutated Bears. Bring it by our forum

Quote :
Come on, try to follow my thoughts here, not just be a b*tch.

i'm not bitching, I'm following your thoughts, you are trying to say that all animals
with a warhound profile will be affected with the animal friendship
skill. What means that your heroes can be friends with I.E Chaos Warhounds and other evil, not 'normal' animals.

Quote:
Da Bank wrote:
This would be with Horses, Mules, dogs and war horses
and works with Monkeys also. Remember, you don't have to have warhounds
you can sub in your own animals as long as you keep the stats and rules
to dogs.

Anything that a non human warband would have or use in no way counts as "Normal".
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 4:42

I know how it works, but ... you can replace any Wardog with any model as long as you stick to the Wardog Profile. Since you are such a fan of imagination and role-playing I am sure I can think of tons of animals that would fit a mountain/vodka-oriented Warband, but which aren't considered 'normal'.
You can't even tell a player not to do so, since the rules clearly state anyone can do so if he or she pleases, and sticks to the Wardog Profile.

My point was to try to prevent this, by saying that all Animals based on the Wardog Profile are normal. Because what otherwise is the difference between a Wardog and a Warhound of Chaos but a bit of fluff? Nothing really, making it the same animal, with the same Profile, and the same Characteristics.
If you can show me any RB text mentioning the Chaoshounds completely different from Wardogs, be my guest. But for now I don't see the difference apart from the fact Chaoshounds may look a bit more nasty then the average Wardog would.

Maybe, my proposed rule can be applied in conjunction with a rule like: "All Chaos models are considered abnormal", which would overrule all Animals based on the Wardog being normal. Although Mutants are normal, but ... mutated! So, I'm not sure.

I was just trying to point out a flaw in our new rules, hoping all of us together can find a satisfying way of re-writing that bit of Rulebook to smoothen the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 5:02

Meister Ostalgie wrote:
I know how it works, but ... you can repalce any Wardog with any model as long as you stick to the Wardog Profile. Since you are such a fan of imagination and role-playing I am sure I can think of tons of animals that would fit a mountain/vodka-oriented Warband, but which aren't considered 'normal'.
You can't even tell a player not to do so, since the rules clearly state anyone can do so if he or she pleases, and sticks to the Wardog Profile.

Yeah offcourse, I would love to see drunken st.bernard type of dogs with the keg hanging under there head! Go crazy!.. as long as you stick to the wardog profile, and have a corresponding model to field. But if it must be labled Normal of Abnormal, swing it by our own gaming group, and we will see where it ends up on the list.

Quote :
My point was to try to prevent this, by saying that all Animals based on the Wardog Profile are normal.


But they aren't.

Quote :
Because what otherwise is the difference between a Wardog and a Warhound of Chaos but a bit of fluff?

And the aliance to good or evil.

Quote :
Nothing really, making it the same animal, with the same Profile, and the same Characteristics.

possessed bretheren & mercenary marksmen also got the same race and profile, clearly they are of a different lineage.

Quote :
If you can show me any RB text mentioning the Chaoshounds completely different from Wardogs, be my guest. But for now I don't see the difference apart from the fact Chaoshounds may look a bit more nasty then the average Wardog would.


The problem is not that they are dogs, they are, they are wardogs. The problem is to what side of the good/evil spectrum are they alligned. What would normal Humans warbands use is the thought here, clearly they won't be using chaos-hounds.

I want to continue this discussion on our own forum, because my point here has been made. I console in DA BANK's reply.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 11:03

I understand Master Ostalgie's point on this one. The equipment list wardogs can be represented by any model you wish, so long as they still use the profile provided. I think that this would extend to being a "normal animal" as well. Why would anyone ever take a "normal animal" wardog. when for the same cost you can get a mutant lemming or some such that can't be charmed by Ostlanders?

Bening a normal animal is part of the profile. If I decide to represent my wardogs with beasts of chaos models does it gain daemonic instability? No. Changing the model should not change its rules. Any model paid for and fielded from the wardog entry should be a normal animal.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 17:05

As an avid Ostlander player myself, I also understand Master Ostalgie's viewpoint, but as a longtime player of Mordheim, I understand even further Thorwald's viewpoint, and this is exactly the interpretation I proposed and our group has accepted for "normal" animals.

Fluffwise, a Kislevite warband cannot just say "he's a mutated Trained Bear," because they cannot ally with chaos, and a significant type of their henchmen even hate chaos. This really can be extended to all non-chaos warbands, including all Mercenaries and human warbands from The Empire and Bretonnia (excluding, of course, Cult of the Possessed/Carnival of Chaos), Dwarfs (excluding, of course, Chaos/Black Dwarfs), Halflings, and Elves (excluding, of course, Druchii).

I would only allow "warhounds purchased as equipment" to be defined as "normal" animals - that'll close that loophole. Alternately, if you can handle the additional possible confusion, you could use Da Bank's answer to help with this - warhound equivalents purchased by non-human warbands could be abnormal, but warhound equivalents purchased by human warbands could only be normal. For the latter, I would count Carnival of Chaos, Cult of the Possessed, and Undead as "non-human" warbands, even though they contain some humans.

To carry this on to other animals, the Wolf Companion available to Middenheimers (via the Priest of Ulric) is a normal animal. Conversely, the Giant Wolf available to Goblins (via Blazing Saddles) is an abnormal animal. What's the difference between the two (besides stat line)? The Wolf Companion is available to a human warband, while the Giant Wolf is not.

Thorwald/Master Ostalgie, some other creatures I suggest adding to your list:

Abnormal Animals: Cold One (Blazing Saddles), Giant Wolf (Blazing Saddles), Rat Familiar (Clan Pestilens), Slavehound (Druchii), War Boar (Blazing Saddles), Bull Centaur (Chaos Dwarfs)

Normal Animals: Wolf Companion (Priest of Ulric)

The one animal I would change in your list is the Elven Steed to the abnormal list, since it's not available to human warbands. I'm sure it would also offend the pointy-ears if you called their Elven Steed merely "normal."
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 8:02

Thanks for you well-thought reply. I like your thoughts on how to handle (ab-)normal animals in relation to purchasing them ...
wyldhunt wrote:
I would only allow "warhounds purchased as equipment" to be defined as "normal" animals - that'll close that loophole.
I will suggest it in my group, but I feel it will not change even the smallest thing in their point of view.
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