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 Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule

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Thorwald
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PostSubject: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 10:38

Well here is my first question.

In our gaming group, we've just started a new campaign, and this time we've allowed the warbands from Empire in Flames to join the list.

Evidently someone is playing Ostlanders, and made a claim that all animals are subject to the animal friendship rule.

Quote :
Animal Friendship:
Having grown up amidst the animals of the forest this warrior exudes a
certain charm to all ‘normal’ animals (i.e. warhorses, Warhounds,
etc.). Animals will never attack him and up to two Wardogs (see
Mordheim book, page 54) that the warrior owns do not count against the
maximum number of models in the Warband.

So he claims that everything with the special rule: ANIMAL is subject to this rule.. this includes Minotaurs & Warhounds of Chaos.. When I read the rule it clearly states "normal" animals...

So here's my question: What are normal animals?
Do these rules only apply to the animals listed in the mordheim rulebook (Warhounds, Warhorses etc.)
or do these rules apply to all animals.

It's hard to believe if your such a big friend of animals, that even Minotaurs & chaos hounds like you
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 11:40

that's an intersting question, and kinda vague on behalf of the rules. but i think normal animals would be any animal that doesn't have anything super natural going for it. so chaos warhounds are beasts of chaos and so i'd say no to that, and in EiF it states that a minotuar is a beastman (spawn of chaos) just bigger and with a bull head and considering it's bloodgreed rule i'd say no to that as well. i'd also say that a nightmare, the balewolf, a cold one, and a kroxigor would also be excluded as the ones are are clearly super natural any creature that does not have a forest up-bringing would be unfamiliar to the ostlander. anway thats just my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 12:13

That's why I'm posting it here, in the hope that someone has a reasonable solution..

The emphasis is put on 'normal' in the clarification of the text, so in my opinion these should be the normal animals we state as normal, hounds, horses, toads, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 12:56

I'd say it applies to.

Warhounds
Horses
Warhorses
Trained Bears
Wolves (Norse, not sure about Giant Wolves)
Mule

Probably doesn't apply to.

Chaos Warhounds
Dire Wolves
Squigs
Minotaurs
Nightmares
Chaos Steeds

I'm not entirely sure about Giant Rats, Giant Spiders, Elven Steeds, Cold Ones, etc.
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Thorwald
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 13:01

Mortimer wrote:
I'd say it applies to.

Warhounds
Horses
Warhorses
Trained Bears
Wolves (Norse, not sure about Giant Wolves)
Mule

Probably doesn't apply to.

Chaos Warhounds
Dire Wolves
Squigs
Minotaurs
Nightmares
Chaos Steeds

I would say the same, except Chaos Warhounds are as the description says "mastiff like creatures" so they could go for the normal hound thing, except they are mean and vile beasts who got that way by malnourishment, bad treatment, etc. etc. we would have to use our imagination once again, and once again it's not clearly specified by the developers. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 13:20

Thorwald wrote:
Mortimer wrote:
I'd say it applies to.

Warhounds
Horses
Warhorses
Trained Bears
Wolves (Norse, not sure about Giant Wolves)
Mule

Probably doesn't apply to.

Chaos Warhounds
Dire Wolves
Squigs
Minotaurs
Nightmares
Chaos Steeds

I would say the same, except Chaos Warhounds are as the description says "mastiff like creatures" so they could go for the normal hound thing, except they are mean and vile beasts who got that way by malnourishment, bad treatment, etc. etc.

Uh, I'm to used to thinking of them as them mutant dogs with horns, tentacles, scorpion tails and multiple heads growing out of their bodies ... something I wouldn't consider 'normal'.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 13:40

Quote :

Uh, I'm to used to thinking of them as them mutant dogs with horns, tentacles, scorpion tails and multiple heads growing out of their bodies ... something I wouldn't consider 'normal'.

Yeah me too, bile infested terror dogs.. No friend to any human.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 14:30

This would be with Horses, Mules, dogs and war horses and works with Monkeys also. Remember, you don't have to have warhounds you can sub in your own animals as long as you keep the stats and rules to dogs.

Anything that a non human warband would have or use in no way counts as "Normal".
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 14:44

Da Bank wrote:
This would be with Horses, Mules, dogs and war horses and works with Monkeys also. Remember, you don't have to have warhounds you can sub in your own animals as long as you keep the stats and rules to dogs.

Anything that a non human warband would have or use in no way counts as "Normal".

So it would effect the Kislev's Trained Bear?
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 15:26

I would say no, and for a couple of reasons.

I am willing to bet when they made the warband they didn't even think about the bear, 2nd the bear is "trained" and the other animals noted are not "trained". You could argue the other way also but I think that is too effective against it. There is nothing "official" stating the other on this matter, this is another one of the "grey" areas of Mordheim that I feel better letting the gaming group decide.

To note, in the 10 years of playing I have only played a few times against a Kislev warband.

Just remember I noted it can go either way. I don't believe this needs a "ruling" on it but common sense and a leveled approach needs to be looked at it by each gaming group.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 16:38

Well, we can take it by two ways or views. Let's take a look at the rule closely:

Having grown up amidst the animals of the forest this warrior exudes a
certain charm to all ‘normal’ animals (i.e. warhorses, Warhounds,
etc.).


- Animals. That's the keyword. The Witch hunters warhound can attack me? Let's see...they've the "Animal" rule, so no. A beastmen can attack me? Let's see....they look like animals, but no, they doesn't have the 'Animal' rule so no.

You can't avoid being attacked by the whole band getting this skill, sorry.

- You can chose other viewpoint: the logic one. If you have charm with animals so you don't get attacked by them, because they're 'Neutral'. They wouldn't attack you because they don't have any 'grudge' against you, neither a reason to attack you unless you do it first. An Ogre or minotaur...they don't fit in the description.

But, as 'logic' sometimes means 'Let's stress the rules so I can take profit' I would recomend the first one.

Miniature with Animal skill means 'No attack', that's all.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 7:00

Human is a "normal" animal

Just ban the guy of your gaming group

For the trained bear, I'm quite sure he can attack, but we never encountered this problem when kislevites attacks ostlanders
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 7:48

Here's the guy playing Ostlanders. I never claimed anything, I just started a topic on our private forum to see how my fellow gamers feel about it.

At the moment, we're discussing whether 'normal' has anything to do with it, or that we stick to whatever unit (or equipment for that matter) that has the characteristic 'Animal'.

Quote :
- Animals. That's the keyword. The Witch hunters warhound can attack me? Let's see...they've the "Animal" rule, so no. A beastmen can attack me? Let's see....they look like animals, but no, they doesn't have the 'Animal' rule so no.
Strangely enough, the Minotaur has the Animal characteristic, just like the Warhounds of Chaos. Giants rats have it too. It's clear Wardogs, Warhorses et cetera are affected by this Skill. But how about the other animals ... uh ... creatures.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 7:50

Quote :
Miniature with Animal skill means 'No attack', that's all.
That was my argument. But that's A LOT OF UNITS! The others don't like that ; )

But seriously, I just want this sorted out before any further battles take place in our Campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 8:01

Meister Ostalgie wrote:
Quote :
Miniature with Animal skill means 'No attack', that's all.
That was my argument. But that's A LOT OF UNITS! The others don't like that ; )

But seriously, I just want this sorted out before any further battles take place in our Campaign.

Then, well...that's what the skill says. Maybe I'll house-rule it letting the Minotaur to attack, but you can use it with everything else (yes, rats too)

I don't see the problem. That means that they can attack you with everything else but animals, so let's say that a skaven band can attack you with all the band but 1-2 giant rats...unless you attack them. The spear makes the same to EVERY miniature at the game and I don't see anything wrong with it. How many animals the Ostlanders have? and Reikland? Middenheim? Possesed? Dwarfs? Lizardmen?

PD: I'm gonna make an Ostlander warband too, if you want to speak about it, give me/ask me for advice, anything else, PM me. Also, check/reply here if you want, it's about spears at an Ostlander band
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/spear-as-main-weapon-could-be-useful-t3163.htm#46775
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 8:08

Skaw wrote:
Well, we can take it by two ways or views. Let's take a look at the rule closely:

Having grown up amidst the animals of the forest this warrior exudes a
certain charm to all ‘normal’ animals (i.e. warhorses, Warhounds,
etc.).


- Animals. That's the keyword. The Witch hunters warhound can attack me? Let's see...they've the "Animal" rule, so no. A beastmen can attack me? Let's see....they look like animals, but no, they doesn't have the 'Animal' rule so no.

The keyword is not Animal, if it's just the Animal rule it's perfectly clear. The rule is about animals, but the keyword is NORMAL. (they do give examples! Wink )

- Beastmen have as special rule that they are animals, (see empire in flames, right under the equipment list)

So once again, what is a Normal animal.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 9:08

i agree; they wouldn't have bothered to specify "normal animals" if they wanted it to effect every animal.
also i was wondering if their would be special conditions in which an animal could attack someone with this special rule. it seems kinda broken that someone with this rule could get themselves stuck in combat with something with the animal rule and not be attacked. so will a prokoved animal attack someone with this special rule?
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 10:28

For the love of Sigmar! Minatours and etc are not NORMAL. That is very very obvious. The intent so for similiar animals that was mentioned in the rules.

Does anyone really think a Minatour, Troll or dire wolf and etc would go "Oh, Ok, you are the special human guy and I won't eat you?" No, it is plain to see the intent on this matter.

I tried to set back and let people figure for their groups but it is now the understanding that anything chaos, ork, beastmen, Khemri, Lustria and etc and non human warband that those animals are NOT affected by this.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 10:36

Da Bank wrote:


Does anyone really think a Minatour, Troll or dire wolf and etc would go "Oh, Ok, you are the special human guy and I won't eat you?" No, it is plain to see the intent on this matter.
.

Hahaha.. lol. my thought exactly
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 10:52

Animal Friendship

To me it seems like one of the broken rules several of those additonal impoted warbands have. I would just houserule to let him cause fear to all animals.

Its not really menat to be fear, but a good trained or independent animal should be able to follow its owner (or its own will).
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 13:06

Meister Ostalgie wrote:
Quote :
Miniature with Animal skill means 'No attack', that's all.
That was my argument. But that's A LOT OF UNITS! The others don't like that ; )

But seriously, I just want this sorted out before any further battles take place in our Campaign.

I say do as I did, make a list of all the animals you might encounter, which fall into the normal list and which don't and discuss it with your group until you reach an agreement .... seems there is no clear cut rules on the matter, though Da Bank is typically the authority on such.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Fri 4 Dec 2009 - 10:04

With regards to the trained bear it would seem odd if it could attack him after all it is definatly a normal animal (it's a bear) and if a warhorse can't attack then it shouldn't be able to either, after all they are both trained, the bear just has trained in it's name.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Sat 5 Dec 2009 - 6:01

We're sort of working on a list of Animals now, separating them in normal and ... abnormal.

I just came across the Torch-discussion, where there's also the question raised in which Animals the Torch causes fear. However, the Rulebook doesn't mention the word 'normal' here, meaning a Torch would cause fear in all models with the Characteristic 'Animal'. Which is fine by me, but which seam strange in relation to the Animal Freundschaft rule. (Yes, I like to Ostlandify the names of my Skills and such).

Doesn't it make sense to take a grand new look on the Characteristic of Animal, and work our way through all rules affected by the Characteristic Animal all over?

Note from my side: these sort of role-playing arguments some people use stating whether something is normal or isn't are really useless. I mentioned it a hundred times before in our gaming-group, but there's a very limited amount of things I find normal in Mordheim, or any other GW game for that matter. For me, its about rules and logic.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Sat 5 Dec 2009 - 7:04

Quote :

Note from my side: these sort of role-playing arguments some people use stating whether something is normal or isn't are really useless. I mentioned it a hundred times before in our gaming-group, but there's a very limited amount of things I find normal in Mordheim, or any other GW game for that matter. For me, its about rules and logic.

How are they useless? this game is made by gamers who used their imagination to come up with these rules, not by lawyers. Ok they've clearly done a shitty job in coming up with definitive rules which can't be argued with, but a big part of the game has to do with role playing.
Of course nothing in Mordheim is normal, but that what you get when you play a game with characters based on myths, folklore & the legacy of Tolkien. The rules and logic aren't always very clear, so you have to imagine things, because the people who came up with the rules imagined it to work that way. But it's clear that these imagined rules have a couple of flaws, hence the existence of fora like these! Roleplay arguments aren't useless in a game based on imaginary creatures, in fact they are a necessity to make the game work. Take this discussion for example.
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PostSubject: Re: Ostlanders - Animal friendship rule   Sat 5 Dec 2009 - 13:13

I'd say Dire Wolves and Minotaurs are not effected by torches ... Dire Wolves don't have the 'animal' ability at any rate instead having 'Unliving' ... and I think having the Minotaur have 'animal' was an incredibly poor choice and could avoid some confusion if we rename it 'Feral' 'Savage' 'Bestial' or something to separate it.
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