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darthghandi
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PostSubject: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 4:57

Hi!

I asked this question on warseer a few days back.

At my club they say that according to the rules you get one parry for each weapon that grants a parry. So 2 swords=2 parrys (against different attacks).

The rules as we know are fuzzy at best and after reading the parry entry I can see how it could be interpreted this way.

But still it seems to make swords and duelwielding even more powerful. And nerfing one dwarf skill.

So how should the rules be read?
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 5:20

2 swords = 1 parry
Definately

1 sword + 1 buckler = one parry Re-roll
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 5:40

Jadex is correct but it is a good house rule.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 5:44

Could you please say the exact phrasing of the rule that doesn't let you parry twice?

It does say if i remember correctly that two swords don't grant you a reroll...
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 6:06

Check the close combat section of the rulebook. There is a paragraph on "parry":

parry

Bucklers are small shields which offer no increase to the armour saving throw, but allow you to parry attacks. Swords are also used to parry enemy attacks. When an opponent scores a hit, warriors equipped with bucklers or swords may try to parry the blow. Roll a D6. If the score is higher than the number your opponent rolled to hit, the buckler or sword has parried the strike. Note that it is therefore impossible to parry a blow which scored a 6 on the roll to hit.

A buckler or sword may only parry one blow per hand-to-hand combat phase. A parried blow is ignored and has no effect. If your opponent scored several hits, you will have to try to beat the highest score (if the highest score is a 6, you automatically lose the chance of parrying that opponent’s attacks). If a model is fighting against several opponents, it may only parry the strike from the enemy who makes the first hit(s) (ie, the attacking model with the highest Initiative). In the case of equal Initiative characteristics roll a dice to decide who strikes first.

If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword, you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model armed with two swords can still only roll once.

A model may not parry attacks made with twice (ormore) his own basic Strength – they are simply too powerful to be stopped.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 6:08

Personally I wouldn't really like it as a house rule: it further stimulates the use of two weapons...
We have the following house rules to stimulate use of bucklers (and shield and armour as well):
- buckler or shield give an extra +1AS in close combat
- Light/Heavy armour costs 12/30 gc
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 8:06

I think the argument is based on the passage: "A buckler or sword may only parry one blow per hand-to-hand combat phase".

So if i have two swords (or two bucklers) I get two separate parrys?
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 8:56

If you had two bucklers you can make NO attacks.

The official answer is no, you can have one sword and one buckler to do that if you want but not two of each to reach that objective.

The rules are clear on the matter.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 9:55

I find them also rather clear... no?

"If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword, you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model armed with two swords can still only roll once. "

Please tell me if there is another way to interpret this?
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 10:40

Aye; you can't reroll with two swords but it doesn't say you won't get two attempts at parrying two seperate attacks.

All it says is "A buckler or sword may only parry one blow per hand-to-hand combat phase. A parried blow is ignored and has no effect."

And the rules are very open to interpretation.

I suppose the passage "If a model is fighting against several opponents, it may only parry the
strike from the enemy who makes the first hit(s) (ie, the attacking
model with the highest Initiative
)" suggest that we are dealing with one hit/attack thus one parry?

I know it sounds bonkers but looking at the whole text applying i can understand how they could interpret it this way.
I need a more solid argument then no, cause they can rule lawyer this rule this way.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 11:00

If you have one (or more) sword(s) you get one parry attempt against the first enemy model's highest to hit score. Multiple swords bear no advantage as you can neither re-roll then, nor can you parry additional/different enemy attacks.

If you have a buckler you may re-roll that attempt once. No re-rolls may be re-rolled again.

It really is in the rules Jadex quoted. These are the rules and they have been used like that for 10 years.

DaBank speaks the official word. Currently there is no higher rules instance than him, so this is basically direct feedback from GW.

If you don't believe us or cannot make your gaming mates believe it, then play it differently. There's always a chance of misinterpreting the rules if you try.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 11:35

@Jadex...it says in the rules as you quoted them. One sword allows one attempt to parry. Having another sword will not gain you another parry attempt.

Pasted below are the rules from the rulebook thus by rereading the areas highlighted in red it states what they can do.

As Cianty noted, this game has been around for just over 10 years and there has been no other way to define the rule other then the way we have tried to present to you.

As Cianty noted, I am the Answer MOD for Mordheim. I have been involved with Mordheim almost since day one and love the game. Cianty is also a valued member to the Mordheim community and is a Mod with me on the Yahoo Mordheim Forum (the original Mordheim forum) and on the Specialist Games Mordheim Forum.


I hope this helps explain it, as I know of no other way to state it than I had previously and now. If not then you can have a "house rule" for your own gaming group.
parry
Bucklers are small shields which offer no increase to
the armour saving throw, but allow you to parry
attacks. Swords are also used to parry enemy attacks.
When an opponent scores a hit, warriors equipped
with bucklers or swords may try to parry the blow.
Roll a D6. If the score is higher than the number your
opponent rolled to hit, the buckler or sword has
parried the strike. Note that it is therefore impossible

to parry a blow which scored a 6 on the roll to hit.
[size=9][size=9]A buckler or sword may only parry one blow per
hand-to-hand combat phase. A parried blow is
ignored and has no effect. If your opponent scored
several hits, you will have to try to beat the highest
score (if the highest score is a 6, you automatically
lose the chance of parrying that opponent’s attacks).
If a model is fighting against several opponents, it may
only parry the strike from the enemy who makes the
first hit(s) (ie, the attacking model with the highest
Initiative). In the case of equal Initiative
characteristics roll a dice to decide who strikes first.
If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword,
you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model
armed with two swords can still only roll once.
A model may not parry attacks made with twice (or
more) his own basic Strength – they are simply too

powerful to be stopped.
[/size][/size]
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 12:00

The point is this has never been a problem before and that's why there are no FAQ entries or anything on it. In fact, I can hardly be bothered to make one for this as this really is fairly obvious. Smile

I hope we don't come across rude or arrogant, darthghandi! But this really is just as clear to us as the fact that this game is played with 28mm miniatures and not 54mm.

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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 13:04

cianty wrote:
I hope we don't come across rude or arrogant, darthghandi! But this really is just as clear to us as the fact that this game is played with 28mm miniatures and not 54mm.

Mmm, is there a rule for this? Otherwise Im gonna start using 54mm miniatures! No more hiding behind buildings etc for my enemy (nor for me)!
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 13:39

I agree that it is written in the rules that you may only parry one blow.
The problem is convincing my club.
I know that i am (like you have proven) right.
I have no beef with house ruling, it is just that they say that it isn't a house rule and it is supposed to be like this.

The say: "A buckler or sword may only parry one blow per
hand-to-hand combat phase" =
two parrys.

I say: "If a model is fighting against several opponents, it may
only parry the strike from the enemy who makes the
first hit(s) (ie, the attacking model with the highest
Initiative) =
the grammar show clearly that we are talking about ONE attack that may be parried and not several.

And thus it goes back and forth.

The thing is I know i always right and i always have a hard time backing down.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 13:59

I feel you. That must suck.

"If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword, you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model armed with two swords can still only roll once."

I can't see how the people in your club can assume several parry attempts with the above sentence in the rules.

If they won't liste to sound arguments, you can point them to this thread, or Warseer, or the Specialist Games forum, or the Mordheim Yahoo group. They will get the same answer everywhere.

If they don't care for your arguments and the research you have done, then there's no point in discussing with them anyways.

Anyways, we have now passed the point of a rules questions...

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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 15:41

I will play the Devils Advocate here.

"A buckler or sword may only parry one blow per hand-to-hand combat phase."

This sentence could be interpreted to mean that each weapon can parry one blow

"If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword, you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model armed with two swords can still only roll once."

Here, the first sentence deals with re-rolling parries. The second sentence could be interpreted to be a clarification of this, indicating that a sword parrying a blow may not reroll, which would not prohibit a second attempt with the other weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 16:35

I have never seen it that way.

Here are a few questions answered a while back on the matter and they still are stating how we have explained it.

Q: In @h...> wrote:
> I swear I've seen this answered before, so bear with me if I'm just
> missing it in the rules. Can a model armed with two swords re-role a
> missed parry? If not, there would be no advantage to having two
> swords, correct? (in that case, you should just buy a cheaper weopon
> with different advantage like an axe or hammer for a second weopon,
> right?). Can a model armed with a sword and buckler re-roll a missed
> parry?
>
> If there are official answers to my questions, please point me to the
> passage in the rules if possible. Thanks!

A: Page 36-37. All of questions are answered there, without even a FAQ! amazingly.
In short:
No, almost none, yes, yes.


Q:The warriors in the samurai warband can wield two swords at the same
>time (katana and wakizashi), can they parry with each sword?
>can they try to parry the same attack twice?
>
>kashabat

A: Unless there are special rules written into the warband the rulebook
applies. With a sword you may parry. A sword and a buckler gets a parry and
a re-roll. Two swords just get one parry
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 16:56

JAFisher44 wrote:
I will play the Devils Advocate here.

"A buckler or sword may only parry one blow per hand-to-hand combat phase."

This sentence could be interpreted to mean that each weapon can parry one blow

"If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword, you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model armed with two swords can still only roll once."

Here, the first sentence deals with re-rolling parries. The second sentence could be interpreted to be a clarification of this, indicating that a sword parrying a blow may not reroll, which would not prohibit a second attempt with the other weapon.
I see what you're saying, but even so the rules for parrying still read:

LRB, p. 21 wrote:
If your opponent scored several hits, you will have to try to beat the highest score
So unless the opponent had tied for their highest "to hit" roll, you would still only be allowed to parry one of them. I guess, however, one could still argue that two swords grant two parries if against tied highest "to hit" rolls.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 17:10

Or you could argue that once you parry the highest score it is gone and now the next highest score must be parried by the second parry.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 17:20

This is all pretty pointless since we all know how the rules should be played, isn't it?

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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 18:41

JAFisher44 wrote:
Or you could argue that once you parry the highest score it is gone and now the next highest score must be parried by the second parry.
I don't think so, because for all intents and purposes the attacks are all made at the same time, so it doesn't make sense that you could parry one attack, and then parry another attack.

cianty wrote:
This is all pretty pointless since we all know how the rules should be played, isn't it?
Well, JAFisher44 pointed out one reading that would lead someone to interpret the rules such that each sword gives a parry, even though it's almost unanimously accepted otherwise (and even DaBank says so).

I think the point is to find something that says, unequivocally, that two swords only allow a single parry attempt (rather than two swords don't allow a parry re-roll), so that Darthghandi can point to that passage in the rules.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 20:14

Maybe he's asking if A is charged by B, B attacks and A attempts a parry against all of B's attacks ... C than also charges A and proceeds to attack .... hmmm, no, because all warriors move, than fight in separate phases so they would still be attacking at the same time.

Do you get a parry against each opponent your facing in hand to hand or must you choose one?
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 20:15

No, two swords DO NOT grant two parries. I believe I had stated that clearly. To say that is completely wrong.

You guys can HOUSE RULE as Cianty and I have explained it completely. I even supplied information on it from past questions.

If you want to play another way then house rule it. The rules are clear.

I could set back and tear the rulebook apart but that is not the point as MOST not all can tell how the game was to be played.

This has been clearly answered it is really up to the individual to see the light.
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PostSubject: Re: 2 sword=2 parry?   Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 20:18

@Mortimer...did you read the rules? Go to page 20 and 21 of the living rulebook.

parry
[size=30][size=30]Bucklers are small shields which offer no increase to
the armour saving throw, but allow you to parry
attacks. Swords are also used to parry enemy attacks.
When an opponent scores a hit, warriors equipped
with bucklers or swords may try to parry the blow.
Roll a D6. If the score is higher than the number your
opponent rolled to hit, the buckler or sword has
parried the strike. Note that it is therefore impossible

to parry a blow which scored a 6 on the roll to hit[size=30][size=30]A buckler or sword may only parry one blow per
hand-to-hand combat phase. A parried blow is
ignored and has no effect. If your opponent scored
several hits, you will have to try to beat the highest
score (if the highest score is a 6, you automatically
lose the chance of parrying that opponent’s attacks).
If a model is fighting against several opponents, it may
only parry the strike from the enemy who makes the
first hit(s) (ie, the attacking model with the highest
Initiative). In the case of equal Initiative
characteristics roll a dice to decide who strikes first.
If your model is armed with a buckler and a sword,
you may re-roll any failed parries once. A model
armed with two swords can still only roll once.
A model may not parry attacks made with twice (or
more) his own basic Strength – they are simply too

powerful to be stopped.


@Myntokk on page 21 it clearly states that two swords DO NOT equal two parries.
[size=30][size=30]A model

armed with two swords can still only roll once.[/size]
[/size]

[/size]
[/size]
[/size]
[/size]


[size=30]If a model is fighting against several opponents, it may
only parry the strike from the enemy who makes the
first hit(s)
[/size]


Last edited by Da Bank on Sun 15 Nov 2009 - 20:26; edited 2 times in total
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