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garathiel
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PostSubject: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 11:44

I would like to discuss a big home rule for the mordheim world.

Realistic World:

" All the models in the Warband take reference for the maximum racial caracteristic from the books of Warhammer Fantasy Battle "

Fixing all the points with the 7th edition racial caracteristics

Lets discuss guys Very Happy ... I think its really good to have some coherence in the same fantasy world.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 14:56

Well just quickly going off the reference sheets this seems to be the apparent maximums in Warhammer (Ghouls and Possessed aren't really applicable, one having no heroes to show stat gain the other having no representation in Warhammer as far as I know)


Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Human 4 6 4 4 4 3 6 4 9
Elf 5 7 7 4 3 3 8 4 10
Dwarf 3 7 5 4 5 3 5 4 10
Skaven 6 6 6 4 4 3 7 4 8
Vampire 6 8 6 5 5 4 8 5 10
Beastmen 5 6 3 5 4 3 6 4 8
Orc 4 6 3 4 5 3 4 4 9
Goblin 4 5 3 4 4 3 5 4 8
Ogre 6 6 4 5 5 5 4 5 9
Saurus 4 6 0 5 5 3 3 4+1 8
Skink 6 4 4 4 3 2 5 3 6
(Saurus is A 4+1 Bite Attack, not 18 Ld)
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 15:58

I think this is a really good chart ... don't you?
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 16:29

I think it cuts back on BS to much for alot of races, especially when it doesn't effect elves.

Beastmen feel quite nerfed, I would consider giving them W4 as start off at W2 (due to how they where represented in an old edition of Warhammer).

Given that the Vampire pretty much is power of an Undead Warband I'd be wary of cutting back on his strength and toughness to badly, but maybe he'll be able to get by.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 16:49

Lol u're right...but is nice that I'm a Dwarf player ... that has just ordered an undead battalion and woul like to use the nemesis crown goblins warband ... ^^ ... having a warband of Dark Elves in the bbox ready to be assembled.

I don't like goblins with Elven bow BS
I don't L orks with Tilean xbow BS
I don't L T4 elves

^_^ but i don't know if using that chart it would destroy the balance of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 16:58

I think these alterations might be abit more reasonable, but let me know.



Profile M WS BS S T W I A Ld
Human 4 6 6 4 4 3 6 4 9
Vampire 6 8 6 6 5 4 8 5 10
Beastmen 5 6 3 5 5 4 6 4 8
Orc 4 6 4 4 5 3 4 4 9
Goblin 4 5 5 4 4 3 5 4 8
Skink 6 4 6 4 3 3 6 3 7
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 17:48

I really don't see many issues with Mordheim's racial maximums - the scale is different and you have to allow for enough growth to keep the game interesting. Most follow a fairly generic formula of 3 above "standard" for WS, BS, I, and A, 2 above for W and LD, and one above for S and T. That's true of almost all Mordheim races, and to me it seems to work really well.

Allowing one group to exceed one of those conventions or forcing one group to fall short of those conventions typically either cripples them in one arena or pushes them into a particular playstyle too easily. Have similar room for stat growth in all areas maintains more versatility in warriors.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 19:49

The racial maximums are fine with me, except in the odd cases where they didn't exist, but that was fixed long before i started playing!

One thing i would like the see imported into Mordheim is the elven "fay but frail" rule, there toughness can never be raised above, or fall below, 3 for any reason whatsoever!
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 21:07

This thread is racist.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 5:26

JAFisher44 wrote:
This thread is racist.

And thus against the forum rules. Stop it now! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 12:38

quick queston does a minotuar have a racial stat max, or can he only be 1 better in everything?
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 12:47

Minotaur's max stats are M6|CS6|BS5|S5|T5|W5|I6|A5|Ld9
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 21:59

AFKzombie wrote:
quick queston does a minotuar have a racial stat max, or can he only be 1 better in everything?

He can never become a hero so is limited to +1 to any stat like all henchmen.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Mon 9 Nov 2009 - 1:41

Myntokk wrote:
I really don't see many issues with Mordheim's racial
maximums - the scale is different and you have to allow for enough
growth to keep the game interesting. Most follow a fairly generic
formula of 3 above "standard" for WS, BS, I, and A, 2 above for W and
LD, and one above for S and T. That's true of almost all Mordheim
races, and to me it seems to work really well.

Allowing one
group to exceed one of those conventions or forcing one group to fall
short of those conventions typically either cripples them in one arena
or pushes them into a particular playstyle too easily. Have similar
room for stat growth in all areas maintains more versatility in
warriors.

I Agree! : )
Keep it simple:
3 above "standard" for WS, BS, I, and A
2 above "standard" for W and LD
1 above "standard" for S and T
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Mon 9 Nov 2009 - 2:59

Admittedly the Vampire breaks the rule with +4 WS, +3 S, +2 T and +4 I, but only +2 BS and A.

But than some leeway given he's supposed to be extra powerful is alright I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Mon 9 Nov 2009 - 9:07

I agree with Myntokk and Jadex...

"Keep it simple:
3 above "standard" for WS, BS, I, and A
2 above "standard" for W and LD
1 above "standard" for S and T"

But with a quick easy mod:
2 above standard for attacks.

I'd be pretty strict to that principle, with the occasional exception here and there...


Cheers!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Mon 9 Nov 2009 - 10:12

Mortimer wrote:
Admittedly the Vampire breaks the rule with +4 WS, +3 S, +2 T and +4 I, but only +2 BS and A.

But than some leeway given he's supposed to be extra powerful is alright I think.
True, there are of course some exceptions to the norm, but in the case of a vampire, for instance, there's never more than 1 in a warband so his maximum stats don't dictate the playstyle of the whole gang, and the ability to become so monstrously powerful isn't that big of a deal given the rest of the warband.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Tue 19 Jan 2010 - 8:33

Heres a list...
ProfileMWsBsSTWIALd
Human466443649
Elf5774439410
Dwarf3764535410
Ogre654664547
Halfling4573339410
Gor476454649
Beastigor576454649
Centigor976454649
Possessed6806647510
Vampire6867649410
Ghoul552453557
Skaven666443747
Orc466453549
Not the best but it is atleast a list...
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Tue 19 Jan 2010 - 16:07

Myntokk wrote:
I really don't see many issues with Mordheim's racial maximums - the scale is different and you have to allow for enough growth to keep the game interesting.

While I agree that growth and changed are needed to keep things interesting for longer campaigns, I actually think the current max stats are detrimental for the scale of the game... Mordheim is supposed to be a skirmish game, so why would we have characters with stats from 5th edition fantasy? 5th edition was the old Hero-hammer days, when the little guys in units didn't actually do anything in the battle!

I've seen many a Mordheim campaign/warband fall into the dirt because heroes became so powerful that the henchmen couldn't even hurt them. While this does represent 5th edition fantasy fine, it doesn't make for a fun game. There's a reason why we're past 5th edition in fantasy!
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Tue 19 Jan 2010 - 19:07

The only thing I have to complain about is T4 elves!

The Fey but Frail rule sounds awesome.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Tue 19 Jan 2010 - 19:41

JoshuaSable wrote:
I've seen many a Mordheim campaign/warband fall into the dirt because heroes became so powerful that the henchmen couldn't even hurt them. While this does represent 5th edition fantasy fine, it doesn't make for a fun game. There's a reason why we're past 5th edition in fantasy!

Haha, funny you should say so, 5th ed. was actually my favorite edition of fantasy thus far for similar reasons - versatility didn't force playstyles (it also left a lot of room for beardy gamers to have a hayday, however...).

Anyways, that just points out (in my opinion) why the Hero/Henchmen distinction is ridiculous. The old skirmish games didn't have it, and in my opinion they were much better off that way. A warband of 15 unique heroes is far more fun and interesting to play than a warband of 6 heroes and all their generic lackeys.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Wed 20 Jan 2010 - 2:05

Myntokk wrote:
A warband of 15 unique heroes is far more fun and interesting to play than a warband of 6 heroes and all their generic lackeys.
Sorry to get off-topic, but I disagree with this! Laughing

It's one of the many reasons I prefer Mordheim to Necromunda (etc) - I much prefer the small number of individuals and horde of their generic lackies! pirat
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Wed 20 Jan 2010 - 10:41

Myntokk wrote:

Anyways, that just points out (in my opinion) why the Hero/Henchmen distinction is ridiculous. The old skirmish games didn't have it, and in my opinion they were much better off that way. A warband of 15 unique heroes is far more fun and interesting to play than a warband of 6 heroes and all their generic lackeys.

Seconded. Though, I will admit Mordheim cuts down on the overall amount of post game paperwork to be done after the game by making henchmen so easy to deal with. I suppose if I had to choose I would just barely take Mordheim over Necromunda (old school Necro anyway), I am a huge fan of both games.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Wed 20 Jan 2010 - 12:53

WarbossKurgan wrote:
I much prefer the small number of individuals and horde of their generic lackies! pirat
Then Warhammer 5th edition is right for you! thumbsup

Actually, I can totally agree with that sentiment, too. I get where the elite core with general henchies can be fun, I just dislike that henchmen are so crippled in comparrison with heroes. I understand getting a different advancement table, but to be limited to only 4 advancements, assuming they survive that long (because they're more than 2x as easy to kill), only being able to advance any one stat once, missing out on the best stat advances, and having much more limited equipment lists makes them seem almost worthless except for their horde factor. I guess I just like the more personalized aspect of the skirmish games, and when characters don't contribute much other than cannon fodder they're a bit of a drag on the rest of the warband.

I'd much prefer if henchmen had a longer xp track, could advance a stat to their racial max, died 1 in 6 times instead of 1 in 3, and could use at least some miscellaneous equipment.

Joker2and53 wrote:
Seconded. Though, I will admit Mordheim cuts down on the overall amount of post game paperwork to be done after the game by making henchmen so easy to deal with. I suppose if I had to choose I would just barely take Mordheim over Necromunda (old school Necro anyway), I am a huge fan of both games.
Very true, the book-keeping can be a bit of a pain. And in the end, I prefer Mordheim over Necromunda or Gorkamorka too, but not because of something in the rules. It's mostly because the variety in Mordheim blows the other two out of the water, across gangs and within gangs. I think the other two both had a much more balanced rule system.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I should add, too, that for me the scaling of the stats doesn't really matter. One could say that it's ridiculous that rag-tag warriors in a ruined city are running around with a weapon skill of 6, but I've always assumed that Mordheim stats would not translate directly into a game of Warhammer. Even the most experience mercenary captain in Mordheim would probably be more like a hero in an Empire army list, while starting out he would be just a regimental champion if that. Conversely, if you brought state troops into Mordheim I'd give them a stat boost from their Warhammer statline. So in that sense, the scale really doesn't bug me at all, because it's all self-contained, and you don't have to think about it in comparison with Warhammer.
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Thu 21 Jan 2010 - 2:22

The limits don't bother me.

Henchmen can get up to their racial maximums if they are exceptional and stand out from their peers - i.e. if they get That Lad's Got Talent.

The limits that Henchmen have make them seem like normal members of their race and the Heroes as the exception. They stand head-and-shoulders above their minions just because they are Heroes!
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PostSubject: Re: Racial Maximum   Today at 17:13

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