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ebon_tower
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PostSubject: Carnival of Chaos   Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 23:41

Okay, this has probably been asked before - I think I saw a thread about this some time ago, but I can't for the life of me find it.

Is the carnival of chaos balanced? Playable? I know it's "official" but it looks SEVERELY overpowered, and is chock-full of special rules and instances that don't pop up anywhere else in the game (swarm of flies, plague cart, henchmen that can all be killed if you rout)

How does the Plague Cart work? How big is it? How many horses are pulling it? How does it attack? Does taking out a wheel immobilize it? I simply don't get it...

So, what's the deal? Worth it to play? Or, do they take extensive house-ruling to make work?

Oh, one last thing - I don't ever intend to use Nurgle Rot, I've read the discussions regarding it. It's horrible and pointlessly destructive and can kill an entire warband out of a campaign if the player rolls bad. It's out. We dont' even need to discuss it.
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 0:47

ebon_tower wrote:
How does the Plague Cart work? How big is it? How many horses are pulling it? How does it attack? Does taking out a wheel immobilize it? I simply don't get it...

You should probably have a look at the wagon rules in the Empire in Flames supplement. They're called "Vehicles of the Empire" and detail how wagons, including the Plague Cart, work in general.

If you are interested in seeing the Plague Cart's model, have a look at this thread, which includes photos of all official CItadel Miniatures for Mordheim:
http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/mordheim-resources-f20/reference-official-citadel-miniatures-for-mordheim-t512.htm?sid=13ec63864d6ea83f1cb45e94ffeff81b

Honestly, aside from Nurgle's Rot, which is annoying and unfun more than anything, I don't think the Carnival is the worst warband to play with/against. I'll give them a go in the next campaign and if any of your players is interested in it, then I would just play it and see how it turns out. Don't waste too much time thinking about what works and what doesn't. In my eyes, that is more unfun than anything and it's not always necessary.

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ebon_tower
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 1:24

Thanks for the swift reply!

I read the rules on carts, and it just seems too complicated to really worry about, honestly. I'll have to discuss it with my Mordheim Club, to see what they think, but it just looks like CoC is more trouble than it's worth...
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 1:52

ebon_tower wrote:
I read the rules on carts, and it just seems too complicated to really worry about, honestly. I'll have to discuss it with my Mordheim Club, to see what they think, but it just looks like CoC is more trouble than it's worth...

Well, if there is a player who really wants to play the Carnival, then it would be up to him to learn the rules and explain them to the rest of the group. If he (or she!) wants to even use a Cart, that is. A cart is definately not necessary at the beginning and only an option for later. You can easily play the warband without the cart.

During our games in the Border Town Burning supplement we have greatly enjoyed the use of carts and wagons. The rules are somewhat complicated and you need to learn them during gameplay, but its fun to drive over enemies and crash into building Suspect At least for one party.

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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 3:35

Choose a warband that pleases you, don't mind the rules. It's far more better to be into something you like, instead of just powerplaying for the sake of winning.
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 5:33

CoC is not overpowered actually. It gained that reputation because of the nurgle's rot pre-faqs broken effect (But even now is still gamebreaking).

You just need to choose to not use it (i never liked that option) or houseruling it (it may for example cause a -1 T malus una tantum, or it can become curable, or adopt tons more others interesting variations).

CoC has drawbacks too, like they can't hire any hired sword, they have only one henchmen type that may gain experience and they have few and overcosting missile weapons, not to mention they have no access to shooting skills (some of the best skills around since ranged weapons are the best in town).
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 6:29

I've played Carnival Of Chaos quite a bit...

Never used Nurgles Rot and have never used the Cart.

Worked fine for me, They are good but not as unbeatable as they are made out to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 6:48

Kaptain Dedgob wrote:
Choose a warband that pleases you, don't mind the rules. It's far more better to be into something you like, instead of just powerplaying for the sake of winning.

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

As for the other comments: This is kinda what I suspected. There's definately too much whining going on in the community and I fear it often scares off newcomers.

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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 10:32

As others have pointed out, they're really not that bad. If the player using them wants a cart then he/she'll have to learn the vehicle rules, but otherwise that's pretty much it - and you can get by just fine without one (I've never used it). I think the best approach is to just play them as-is, and if you guys find that a certain aspect needs houseruling to make them playable for your group's style, then you can agree on that. While you could take suggestions from people here, I really think the best way to do it is to give them a test run and see how the warband plays in your campaign, and come up with houserules based on that if you deem it necessary.

ObsidianLord wrote:
they have no access to shooting skills (some of the best skills around since ranged weapons are the best in town).
The master can learn shooting skills, meaning any promoted brethren may as well, if you choose. Did that change?
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 11:11

Myntokk wrote:
ObsidianLord wrote:
they have no access to shooting skills (some of the best skills around since ranged weapons are the best in town).
The master can learn shooting skills, meaning any promoted brethren may as well, if you choose. Did that change?

I am becoming blind guys
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 13:59

Kaptain Dedgob wrote:
Choose a warband that pleases you, don't mind the rules. It's far more better to be into something you like, instead of just powerplaying for the sake of winning.

Oh, it has nothing to do with wanting to win - I'm not noting their relative power level as an advantage, I was noting it as a DISADVANTAGE. I don't like things to be overpowered. I'm far more focused on the idea of having a group of friends involved in a campaign from a whole-hobby standpoint ; painting, modeling, terrain building, warband-building, story-telling, AND playing. I don't want any one person to dominate that field and ruin the fun for everyone else, even if that person doing the dominating is me. (Heck, ESPECIALLY if it's me!)

It's seeming from the other replies that if I exclude Nurgle's Rot (or houserule nerf the crap out of it... but excluding seems easier and better) and don't use the plague cart, they play pretty close to any other warband and can be fun to play and play against. I may do this, but as we're only coming up on the 1/3rd mark of the completion of our current campaign, I've got some time to research the issue.

Thank you everyone for contributing to it!
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 17:32

I'm glad to hear that they aren't overpowered, I fell in love with the carnival theme right away, but once we started playing again about 2 years ago we only played with the warbands in the book.

Cause I share very much your oppenion Ebon_Tower on gaming and balancing.
But that being said, I am also very emotional when it comes to warbands, if I get an idea in my head about something that fluff-wise and miniature-wise will be great, it's hard for me to get it out again.
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 16:04

The Carnival of Chaos is a fun Band and I have several Bands of them. Iíve talked on length about them before. The Cart has spurred lots of conversation. And for some reason many still get it wrong. Iíve come up with several solutions to help others with the Cart, but as always, Most just want to change a major aspect and not fix the problems that change would create.



Let me explain: Many want to compare the Plaque Cart to a Stage Coach. This couldnít be more incorrect. The Stage Coach is a vehicle pulled by two living horses. Like a Dog Sled. Itís just transportation, like a bus. The Coach is a wagon. It has movement charts and damage ratings. The horses and wheels can be killed or damaged, the Coach stops. The vehicle is no longer usable. The Plaque Cart on the other hand isnít just a coach or wagon. Itís a living Creature! Just as any other Henchman. Itís a Demon thatís in the shape of a Cart. The Horses are not separate, the rider isnít just a Pilot. They are all part of this Demon. Didnít anyone wonder why there isnít a movement chart? Ever wonder why you canít replace a dead Plaque Horse? Why does the Rider only die when the Cart is destroyed? Because, The Horses, Rider, Wheels, and Cart are all part of the same Demon. I Quote, TC 27, Page 14: ďImmune to Psychology: The Plague Cart and Guardian are considered Daemonic and donít know the concept of fear.Ē May I ask why would the Writers state the Cart is immune to psychology? Why would that have to be stated about the Cart but not the Stage Coach? I was also looking at The Caravan scenario in the back of the Annual 2002. Nowhere does it list the ďWagonsĒ being Immune to Psychology. I believe its because the Stage Coach and Wagons are not living Creatures. The Plague cart can be stopped and even Killed. My group plays it, as if you take a horse to Zero Wounds than the Cart moves at half movement. Take both horses to Zero and the cart stops moving. Its not dead, it just canít move. Break the wheels and the Cart stops moving. Unless you, ďkillĒ the Cart, meaning all wounds reduced to Zero, its alive. And would regenerate after the game as a Troll would. Also, if you are able get the Cart OOA, it still has to roll as a Henchman to see if it Survives. Do you have to do that for a Stage Coach? Ever wonder Why?



I have some other fixes (suggestion) for this Band, for those who donít like to use the Cart as a Henchman. But those will have to come latter, when I have more time. More to followÖ
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 16:24

Wooow. I think you're really interpreting too much into the Plague Cart. It sure works exactly like a wagon, follows the same movement rules and horses can run off and die per the normal wagon rules.

The driver is a special rule and so is the Plague Cart's effect on the warband, but aside from that, it is just a wagon following the rules described in the Vehicles of the Empire section.

Maybe I misunterstood you, and you meant these things to be fixes. If so, I am sorry. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 16:51

I am all ears! I haven't played with the wagon yet, need to build one first anyway, but it seems the rules are somewhat unclear? I can see the point in it being daemonic all together. Will have to read up on the rules for it again.
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 21:51

As a Rules fan I do a lot of research. I could be wrong, but its uncommon. Perhaps you can show me anywhere else in any Book, Town Cryer, and Errata a listing where any piece of equipment is list as a Henchman. Iíve looked and looked. I canít seem to locate this. Witch Hunters list Wardogs as Henchmen, but any other Band purchases a Wardog has to list it as equipment assigned to a specific member. Bretonnians list Warhorses as equipment. Why since itís a ride, a vehicle as it will, not be listed as a Henchman. It can fight, die, and be repurchased. If the Plague Cart is just a wagon. And the Horses just horses and die as normal. Why canít you just buy Horses? Why arenít horses listed under starting equipment? Or why isnít the Plague Cart listed under the Equipment list? Or even listed as Special Equipment for the COC? Why would the writers list Special Equipment for each Warband, like Fighting Claws and Dwarven Axes under a special list. And then list a plain transport wagon as a Henchman?



The Plaque Cart is not a new issue. But as I read the Errata for Morheim which covers the Main Book, Annual, Empire in Flames, and the Town Cryers; I canít help but notice the there are several listings for corrections for the COC, including Nurgleís Rot and Death of the Magister. Iíve noticed many entries on correcting Empire in Flames, including the Beastmen and COC. And I noticed the lack of something. I noticed no errata on the Plague Cart. The Cart is listed as a Henchman with the special rule, Gaurdian, not Henchman Guadian, special rules Cart. All the descriptions of the Cart says Demon. Even the Fluff states, ďThe Plague Cart is the embodiment of Nurgle and the core or the Carnival of Chaos.Ē



I Quote the previous post: ďIt sure works exactly like a wagon, follows the same movement rules and horses can run off and die per the normal wagon rules.Ē I ask you this, why would the horses bolt and run, if they are immune to fear and have no LD value listed? Why would the ďCartĒ itself need to be immune to fear, if its just a wagon. If its just a wagon why would it need a fear check? Would your Shield need to take a Fear Check? Of Course not, your shield is not alive. Nor Demon Embodied.



ANYWAY:



I did say I suggestions for those who donít like the Cart and just want it removed. First off, to remove such a large part of a Warband, youíd also have to remove the penalties for not having one. 1) Allow the COC to have all 17 members. 2) Add the Bonus the Cart gives to Daemonic Instability to the members as if the Cart was there; meaning re-roll Leadership tests for instability and +1 to their injury test if OOA. This would only be Fair to the COC players.



If the COC player still really wants the Cart, try these simple options. 1) use the Cart as a ďStandardĒ use the Standard rules as a piece of equipment. Or 2) Just use the Cart as a mobile encampment, just for looks at the edge of the table, with no bonuses or penalties.



Just to remove the Cart as a Henchman and taking the Bonuses with it, is like declaring the Dwarven Hard heads and the Sigmarite Hammers are to strong and removing from play. They are major part of those Bands.
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 10:12

Shadowphx wrote:

If the COC player still really wants the Cart, try these simple options. 1) use the Cart as a ďStandardĒ use the Standard rules as a piece of equipment. Or 2) Just use the Cart as a mobile encampment, just for looks at the edge of the table, with no bonuses or penalties.

This seems like an interesting idea to me... but rather than have it on the sides of the table, have it equipped as a piece of gear on a hero, so it stands the chance of being taken out of action like any other expensive piece of gear.

Where can I find the rules for standards? I browsed through Empire in Flames, but didn't see it...
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PostSubject: Re: Carnival of Chaos   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 17:29

The fact that it is listed as a Henchman doesn't mean that the cart itself is not a piece of equipment, or that it shouldn't be treated exactly like a normal stage coach.

First of all, for anyone else to have a stage coach in operation they need to elect one of their warband members to be the driver. In this regard, the stage coach takes up a slot in the warband as well, given that it is only useful so long as a warband member is using it, and is dedicated to that and nothing else. The member of the warband who drives the cart cannot do anything but operate the coach, and so is more or less part of it. With the Plague Cart the only difference is that the driver and cart are purchased together, and are inextricable. If it helps to do so, then view the guardian as the Henchman that you're hiring, and the Cart itself as the equipment he inherently brings along with him. Looking at it this way makes much more sense to me.

Secondly, the way in which it is listed is identical to a normal coach, other than the fact that the guardian's profile is listed alongside the other components, and that his profile has no wounds (befitting the fact that he is purchased with the cart and their special rule, detailing that he cannot be harmed but instead goes with the cart). If the horses and wheels cannot be dealt damage, and subsequently destroyed, separately, and the cart is really just one big daemonic entity for gameplay purposes, then there would be no point in listing them separately. As it stands, they are listed just as other existing creatures/structures of their type, and there is nothing stating that they do not follow the same rules.

Shadowphx wrote:
Let me explain: Many want to compare the Plaque Cart to a Stage Coach. This couldnít be more incorrect. The Stage Coach is a vehicle pulled by two living horses. Like a Dog Sled. Itís just transportation, like a bus. The Coach is a wagon. It has movement charts and damage ratings. The horses and wheels can be killed or damaged, the Coach stops. The vehicle is no longer usable. The Plaque Cart on the other hand isnít just a coach or wagon. Itís a living Creature! Just as any other Henchman. Itís a Demon thatís in the shape of a Cart. The Horses are not separate, the rider isnít just a Pilot. They are all part of this Demon.?
Fluff-wise yes, all of that is correct. The cart and guardian are inseparable parts of this daemonic entity. Rules-wise, everything else indicates that it behaves in the same manner as a coach would, however.

Shadowphx wrote:
Didnít anyone wonder why there isnít a movement chart?
I don't see why it wouldn't use the same movement chart as a coach.

Shadowphx wrote:
Ever wonder why you canít replace a dead Plaque Horse?
Erm, why couldn't you replace a dead plague horse? They're exactly the same as a draft horse, which can be bought for 40gc at rare 8.

In fact, it makes perfect sense that they wouldn't be on the starting list - in other warbands unique equipment is available when recruiting, and must be found with rare item rolls later on. Why would it be any different with a warband that can start with a cart, and must replace the horses later?

Shadowphx wrote:
Why does the Rider only die when the Cart is destroyed? Because, The Horses, Rider, Wheels, and Cart are all part of the same Demon.
Yes, I think this special rule is the only thing about it as far as rules are concerned to indicate that they are one entity. Fluff-wise one big daemon, rules-wise a normal cart except that the driver comes as a part of it.

Shadowphx wrote:
I Quote, TC 27, Page 14: ďImmune to Psychology: The Plague Cart and Guardian are considered Daemonic and donít know the concept of fear.Ē May I ask why would the Writers state the Cart is immune to psychology? Why would that have to be stated about the Cart but not the Stage Coach? I was also looking at The Caravan scenario in the back of the Annual 2002. Nowhere does it list the ďWagonsĒ being Immune to Psychology. I believe its because the Stage Coach and Wagons are not living Creatures.
I chalk that up to flavor text in the rule to reinforce the thematic notion that they are one and the same. However, stating that the plague cart is immune to psychology is really just stating the obvious - any piece of equipment is immune to psychology. Just because one says so doesn't mean that the rest automatically aren't, or that it's any different.

Shadowphx wrote:
The Plague cart can be stopped and even Killed. My group plays it, as if you take a horse to Zero Wounds than the Cart moves at half movement. Take both horses to Zero and the cart stops moving. Its not dead, it just canít move. Break the wheels and the Cart stops moving.
This is what I don't really get - why is it that you extrapolate that the cart behaves in the same way as a stage coach in this instance of movement, but not in other cases?

Shadowphx wrote:
Unless you, ďkillĒ the Cart, meaning all wounds reduced to Zero, its alive. And would regenerate after the game as a Troll would. Also, if you are able get the Cart OOA, it still has to roll as a Henchman to see if it Survives. Do you have to do that for a Stage Coach? Ever wonder Why?
Nothing in the rules of the Plague Cart would indicate that the horses don't have to roll injuries as normal - all other creatures with a profile and wounds have to, so why not them? Why do they regenerate as a troll would? The rules don't say that they do. And lastly, the cart can't go OoA, it can only be destroyed or not destroyed. Likewise, if it is destroyed then the guardian does not roll for injuries, he is simply destroyed along with it.
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