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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 14:19

If you want axes to be more effective than clubs (at least in some situations), replace Cutting Edge with...

Cleave: on a hit roll of 6, this weapon strikes at +1 Strength.
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Mortimer
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 14:33

I like it, may consider using that if I can ever get a game together Smile
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 15:29

w00t elegant and very neat idea! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sat 31 Oct 2009 - 17:01

I don't know, it resembles a model skill, not a weapon characteristic
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sun 1 Nov 2009 - 3:26

ObsidianLord wrote:
I don't know, it resembles a model skill, not a weapon characteristic

Yes. I think I would prefer permanent/static/whatever-you-wanna-call-it effects for weapons, no triggered ones.

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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 14:49

At least there isn't any extra rolling involved.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 16:51

Quote :
At least there isn't any extra rolling involved.

which is why the idea is so good
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 18:42

cianty wrote:
ObsidianLord wrote:
I don't know, it resembles a model skill, not a weapon characteristic

Yes. I think I would prefer permanent/static/whatever-you-wanna-call-it effects for weapons, no triggered ones.
Both interesting comments, since I pulled the "trigger" for this effect from Weeping Blades. They are permanently covered with Black Lotus, which, on a hit roll of a 6, causes an automatic wound. Looking through the various Equipment's Special Rules, I actually see more of them triggered by rolls than Skills' effects are.

Other equipment abilities triggered by rolls: Concussion (on an Injury result of 2, stuns opponent), Parry (if an opponent rolls a hit, may roll to parry), all armor (if opponent rolls a wound, may roll to block wound), Lucky Charms (first time opponent rolls a hit, may roll to block), Cathayan Candles from BtB (Volatile triggered on a hit roll of 1).

Skill effects triggered by rolls (from core living rulebook and BtB): Step Aside (if an opponent rolls a wound, may use), Dodge (if an opponent rolls a hit, may use).

I'm with Asp: I prefer Special Rules that are triggered by existing circumstances (including existing rolls) rather than introducing new rolls. In fact, while Critical Wounds are triggered by an existing roll (and require another roll to resolve), most of the time, a Critical Hit roll is wasted. Our group has reworked the Critical Wound effects to remove the additional roll (borrowing heavily from Asp's and Mordheimer's rules for Critical Wounds), and are instead going to add Critical Hit effects to all weapons to give better variety than the Advanced Critical Chart achieves - not in variety of effects per Critical Hit, but in variety of effects across weapons. Cleave will be one of them.
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someone2040
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Mon 2 Nov 2009 - 20:41

The issue I think people have with a triggered +1 strength, is that it's not a bonus that is always there. It feels more like what a critical hit should be (Rolling a 6 on the hit table) rather than an Axe's natural ability.

I mean, you get the question asked "Why are Axes only more effective on a 6?". Shouldn't they be effective all the time?

Just for instance. Swords always get to parry (Even if it's just to auto-fail). Maces always have an improved stun. Double handers always get +2 strength. Flails always get +2 strength in first round of combat. But Axes would 'sometimes' be a bit stronger.

Doesn't feel right.
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 2:56

I'm fine with poisons being triggered, and weeping blades are sorta poisoned. And I consider Concussion and Parry both as not triggered. This is a 'feel' thing really. I just said what I'd prefer. I didn't say that the entire game was designed the way I would have preferred. Wink

In the end, do what you like best. It's your house rule. It's just that I'd prefer to see simple static effects for the basic weapons such as clubs, axes, swords etc. Again, this is just a feel thing. Going by this feel thing, I would find it appropriate to have a triggered effect on thrusting weapons such as spears or halberds. Or on shooting weapons...

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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 4:24

i agree that the feel-thing is wrong

though mechanics-wise and balance wise it rocks

for me, rules are more important than feely-things

Quote :
borrowing heavily from Asp

glad to hear it

its a shame your group doesn't have document like mine so I can borrow back when I see some good ideas Smile

oh yes, I upped v. 7.5 yester. will up 7.6 today, with a minor tweak
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Tue 3 Nov 2009 - 5:20

Asp wrote:
its a shame your group doesn't have document like mine so I can borrow back when I see some good ideas Smile
Ah, but we do... http://sites.google.com/site/wyldhaunt/games-workshop/mordheim

I'm getting ideas collated for another major rewrite myself. After that, it will no longer really be a compendium of existing Mordheim content, but rather a complete modification of the rules set, and won't bear much resemblance to its core WHFB roots. Honestly, yours, Knights_Templar, and Mordheimer's work enabled me to return to playing Mordheim, rather than consigning it to my dustbin of "excellent concept, poor execution" games. The concept is just too good to allow the official rules execution to torpedo my enjoyment of the game.

Back on topic:

@somone2040: you could also consider the Cleave bonus to always be there, but to autofail if you roll less than a 6... Maces don't have improved stun unless your Injury roll result is a 2. It's all in the semantics.

@cianty. Agreed as well, but again semantics. It's becoming clear, however, that axes are not being used except by those who keep allegiance to fluff in the face of poor effectiveness. I would rather axes be a more effective choice, and I'm willing to introduce a roll-triggered effect to achieve that. If we could think of a better replacement for Cutting Edge, then we would implement the better replacement instead. In our own group, Cleave will be a Critical Hit effect - a new class of effects we are introducing (in lieu of Advanced Critical Hits). Concussion will become a Critical Hit effect as well.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 18:19

Ok Wyld, I stole your idea:

Dagger free common
Strength Penalty: -1 Strength
Does not count as a close combat weapon choice.
Club 5gc common
Concussion: Treat Injury Rolls of ‘2’ as stunned.
Axe 5gc common
Cleave: +1 Strength to all attacks where warrior rolled a natural 6 ‘to hit’.
Net 5gc common
Entangle: Attacks against knocked down enemies wound automatically and ignore armour saves.
Two-handed.
Flail 5gc common
Strength Bonus: +1 S.
Cumbersome: Warriors equipped with Flails can carry no other weapons. (Daggers, Lances, and Throwing Knives are exempt from this.)
Two-handed.
Spear 5gc common
Strength Bonus: +1 S on mounted charges.
Polearm: Strike First in the first round of combat unless mounted or armed with a missile weapon.
Unwieldy: Only shield in off hand.
Sword 7gc common
Swift: Swords have +1 Initiative when determining who strikes first.
Great Weapon 10gc common
Strength Bonus: +1 S.
Armour Piercing: -1 save modifier.
Two-handed.
Halberd 10gc common
Strength Bonus: +1 Strength
Cleave: +1 Strength to all attacks where warrior rolled a natural 6 ‘to hit’.
Polearm: Strike First in the first round of combat unless mounted or armed with a missile weapon.
Two-handed.
Lance 30gc rare 8+
Strength Bonus: +3 S on mounted charges.
Unwieldy: Only shield in off hand.
Does not count as a close combat weapon choice.

And Shield:

Shield 5gc common
Save: 6+
Nimble: Warriors whose two close combat weapon choices are Shield and [Club, Axe or Sword] gain a 5+ save from Shields instead. (6+ saves apply in close combat rounds where warrior is fighting with Lance.)
Missile Weapons: Warriors armed with missile weapons only benefit from Shields in close combat.
Pistols: Warriors armed with Pistols (any kind) never benefit from Shields.
Counts as one close combat weapon choice.

And armour negation:

1-5: Nil
6-7: -1
8-9: -2
10: -3

And skills:

Combat Skill:

Swordsman:
+1 to all injury rolls that warrior inflicts with Swords, Daggers, and Weeping Blades.

Strength Skill:

Zwei-hander:
Warrior adds +1 Strength to all attacks made with Flail or Great Weapon.


Last edited by Asp on Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 18:58; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 18:37

Asp I really like your modification, the Parry is something unclear to me though, you get 5+ if you shield and club axe or sword, but can you parry with all of them then?

and since sword is now swift, does it lose it ability to parry?
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 18:42

right, sorry aboutt he confusing terminology!

parry, while using the same word that we know from the rulebook, actually does not mean anything like the re-roll we are used to!

parry is one of the most flawed rules, so we just got rid of it

instead, what parry means in this context is that warriors gain 5+ as a save instead, making parry a passive ability a la warhammer 7th

if you want, you could imagine that a warrior with a somewhat lighter weapon (club, sword, axe) can make better use of his shield, than a warrior carrying both a shield and a two hander
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Fri 6 Nov 2009 - 18:58

changed parry to nimble above
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 4:20

hmm interesting, how would this affect fighting claws with the art of silent death skill? as they get a better parry
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 5:27

why so many rewords?
if u are using the shield optional rules of Border Town Burning the Axe gain more sense.

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 7:24

We are currently using that rule, and after three campaigns, not one player nor warband has still bought a single axe. That is even with shields being plentiful with our heroes. Clubs are still more useful than axes with official rules, even when buffing shield's AS by +1.
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 7:59

I always give axes to my warriors, cause it has better crits. Mace's crits are useful only if you fight with monsters or characters with more than 1 wound, but against such guys I prefer to send champion with pistols or with great strength. Crits from axe are much more usefull and gives nice chance to OoA (I know, not so fantastic for henchman, cause it's lost PD for heroes)
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 19:58

One of the things I did was to actually make clubs worse. In my ruleset, they do not stun opponents with helmets, and they never get critical hits.

Maces and hammers are a separate class. They're more expensive, and cause stun as normal.

This makes the club a good choice for a starting warband but makes it less useful as the campaign goes on.

To me this is about right. Clubs are, by nature, improvised weapons. They're intended to get you by until something better comes along.

I did something similar with daggers. They're pretty worthless in the game, except as a bare bones "free" weapon if you're too poor to buy the warrior one.

In this case I've made a short sword/poignard class of weapons. They have no real bonuses or penalties, but they have the same special rule I gave the dagger: Sidearm- this weapon does not count against the maximum amount of weapons that can be carried by the warrior. Only one weapon with the sidearm rule may be carried by a warrior.

Basically, it's a dagger with no penalties. You probaly wouldn't want to give these to everybody, but they're good for your heroes at least.
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Mon 9 Nov 2009 - 6:31

Why is flail and Great Weapon only at +1S?
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Mon 9 Nov 2009 - 6:54

Popmouth wrote:
Why is flail and Great Weapon only at +1S?

great weapon as it is is eigther useless (strike last) or fair (with strongman skill)

i make great weapon generally useful (+1 s, armour piercing, NO strike las) with the strongman skill giving it an extra +1 S

pans out nicely
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Mon 9 Nov 2009 - 7:23

I see...
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PostSubject: Re: Want Axes > Clubs?   Mon 9 Nov 2009 - 10:09

mulling it over, wyldhunt, i think that cleave thing is too good

any suggestions for toning it down?
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