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ebon_tower
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PostSubject: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 0:16

I'd like to apologize if this has been brought up before - I haven't seen it in the first several pages of this forum, but that doesn't mean I'm not blind...

A question about the Lesser Magic spell Flight of Zimmerman was brought up the other day. I had a warlock in a Treasure Hunt game FoZ his way through a window into a building, to explore it. My Skaven opponent had a model waiting at the door, and charged my warlock on her turn. The warlock was knocked down, and on my turn, stood up and cast Flight of Zimmerman during the shooting phase to skip back out through the window, escaping from combat.

Now, my opponent objected, but myself and her husband reviewed the rules in the Magic section, and could find no mention of NOT being able to use the spell to escape from combat. It clearly states:

a) Spells may be cast in close combat
b) The spell causes the warlock to IMMEDIATELY move up to 12" in any direction
c) There is president (Silver Arrows) for a spell stating when it CANNOT be cast in close combat, and FoZ makes no such mention

My question to the gathered learned masses here is - Did I cheese something here, or was that a legal and creative move?
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 0:20

As far as I know, spells may be cast while in CC unless they specifically state that they cannot. I'll admit that it is pretty frustrating to have people bail when you think you have them trapped, but as far as I am concerned this is legal.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 0:27

Yeap - that's possible Smile Damn annoying, but magic users have to have a little advantage Razz
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 0:57

This does sound fine to me too.

However, after successfully casting the spell, before making the move, your wizard should make that Leadership test to avoid an automatic hit from his opponent (see rules for breaking from combat in the optional rules). And if he got knocked down or stunned from that hit, then I'd say his spell was interrupted and fizzles.

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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 3:09

Wouldn't the Skaven have got an automatic hit with no Leadership test? I cannot see any mention of a Leadership test to avoid the automatic hit.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 3:52

RationalLemming wrote:
Wouldn't the Skaven have got an automatic hit with no Leadership test? I cannot see any mention of a Leadership test to avoid the automatic hit.

Under Optional Rules, Escaping from Combat (page 161).
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 6:05

Hmm.. I never thought of this situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 8:52

I tend to think that you shouldn't suffer ill effects of disengaging from combat when using this spell. It's magic. When you are ground bound and you have to disengage you have to back away keeping your guard up. Your enemy can follow you. You have to look for just the right opportunity then turn your back and run. When you cast a spell and fly away you just zip off into the air. Unless your opponent is magic as well he can't follow. You don't have to worry if he is gonna be right behind you hacking you to bits. I know it's all fluff, but also, its magic. You have to make sacrifices to use it. You can't wear armour, you cost a lot, etc. It should be special and useful.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 9:18

JAFisher44 wrote:
I tend to think that you shouldn't suffer ill effects of disengaging from combat when using this spell. It's magic. When you are ground bound and you have to disengage you have to back away keeping your guard up. Your enemy can follow you. You have to look for just the right opportunity then turn your back and run. When you cast a spell and fly away you just zip off into the air. Unless your opponent is magic as well he can't follow. You don't have to worry if he is gonna be right behind you hacking you to bits. I know it's all fluff, but also, its magic. You have to make sacrifices to use it. You can't wear armour, you cost a lot, etc. It should be special and useful.

See, this is what I was thinking. Also, we discussed all of the Optional Rules in the back of the book prior to the beginning of the campaign, and we decided not to use the "Escaping from Combat" rules. So, referencing them now because of a normal play situation seems a little backwards.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 16:17

I agree with the "magic is special" - it'll be interesting to see what Da Bank is able to pull together for an official response...
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 19:41

I tend to follow this line of reasoning as well, and in fact I thought that one or another of the "flight" spells even stipulated that the model may enter or leave combat freely, but I couldn't find it anywhere (FoZ and Wings of Darkness both do state that a move into combat is counted as a charge, but nothing more).

What other flight/teleportation spells are there? I thought I remembered this, but I may well have simply invented it in my head. It's happened before.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 20:22

I added the question for the FAQ on the SG site and am checking old emails.

With that I would like to know everyone's thought's on it. Yes and No and if you have any compeling reason why one way or the other.
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 21:17

Mortimer wrote:
RationalLemming wrote:
Wouldn't the Skaven have got an automatic hit with no Leadership test? I cannot see any mention of a Leadership test to avoid the automatic hit.

Under Optional Rules, Escaping from Combat (page 161).

Ahhh... thank you Mortimer. My group has never tried any of the optional rules so I always forget about them.

I just had a thought that if the opponent does not get a free hit when the spell is cast then it would be possible to cast the spell to escape combat while at the same time charging another opponent. Then if in the next turn the spell caster does it again to charge the original opponent then the spell caster would get to keep on striking first (of course he would be locked in combat each of the opponent's close combat phase). Talk about harassment!
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JAFisher44
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Mon 26 Oct 2009 - 21:29

Ok, that might not be a good thing. Is there some possible middle ground without the thing becoming overly complex? I was thinking making it so that the model can't escape and charge with the same move, but that is getting a little bit complex.
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 4:08

I agree that it would be good to have this type of perk for "blink" type spells. I look forward to hearing what Da Bank says. Hopefully he can find that elegance. Very Happy
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 5:04

My take on it:

If you do not play with the Optional Rules for escaping from combat (see back of Mordheim rulebook), then you cannot use this spell to leave combat.

If you do use those rules, then you are free to leave combat (and charge another model), but you must take a Leadership test or suffer an automatic hit from your enemies as per the rules for breaking from combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 5:43

Well, I had prepared to play Shadowlord's Advocate to cianty just to see what I might come up with, but the official rules clearly slammed me down. Please refer to Mordheim Living Rulebook page 21, under Breaking From Combat, last sentence: "Note that warriors cannot choose to leave a fight voluntarily."

That shuts is down pretty well form the official standpoint.

Due to that pretty clear wording, I also must agree with cianty's interpretation of these spells along with the optional rules for Escaping From Combat. The Leadership test to escape combat "...represents his efforts to find the right time to escape." This would apply to finding the right time to cast the spell as well. I still like the "magic is special" notion, but it just doesn't hold up to the wording of the rules in this case.

Score 1 for cianty! (not that he needs more points...)
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 5:53

That is why you don't want to give magic too much room to go contrary to the normal rules as then it gets confusing on how to play the game.

In theory, everything should follow the normal rules for the game unless it says otherwise.

That is why the ruling on Flight of Zimmerman and those other flying spells could be used to run + Leap +Spell and you could go 36 inches in one move and fly of with the treasure chest or etc.

I will still see if anyone else chimes in with anything else that might sway it but as always "in general" the core rules should be followed.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 10:53

Thank you all for your interpretations. These are things we didn't consider at the time the question came up.

We did discuss it with the group last night, and we decided to go with the "Magic is Special" ruling on this one, interpreting the spell as a teleport-type that the aggressor would have little say in stopping. Since it is not a character's standard move, and the 7+ necessary to cast the spell is akin to the leadership test he would need to make to do the same thing on foot, we allowed for it via House Rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 11:13

Well, be careful about using the "bail and charge" maneuver. You may get your house rule repealed.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 11:17

JAFisher44 wrote:
Well, be careful about using the "bail and charge" maneuver. You may get your house rule repealed.

Unfortunately, my warlock caught an arrow to the chest last night courtesy of the Cult of Chaos, and didn't pull through... maybe because I had a Necromancer attempting to apply first aid. He's great with things that are dead, and apparently not so good if you're still alive.

So, I won't be playing with that spell again unless I can get some coin together and hire a new one, and then roll that spell again.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 12:19

JAFisher44 wrote:
Well, be careful about using the "bail and charge" maneuver. You may get your house rule repealed.
Personally I don't think this sounds so threatening. For one thing it relies on repeatedly casting the spell successfully, and beyond that you can't avoid spending 2 melee rounds minimum with an opponent (turn you charged, opponent's following turn). Unless your wizard gets lucky and takes the guy out on the charge, then he'll be tied down at least long enough for another enemy or two to get at him. Then, if/when he blinks away from you, why not simply move out of his 12" range to prevent him from hopping back and forth in this manner?

He would be a nuisance, but no game breaker.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 12:56

The Verdict:

After further review and looking at past decisions you can not leave combat from any Flight Spell.

Leaving combat is not a "regular" option in Mordheim. If you use the optional leave combat rules then this is an option for YOUR gaming group.

Using a spell to leave combat happens in the Magic phase and not in the normal phase it should.

The spell does not say you can do it so you can not do it.

Nowhere does it say spells are special and are immune to the normal rules of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 13:05

Thanks, Da Bank. I, for one, find a "Magic Is Special" explanation both generally unsatisfying and an open invitation for trouble.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Tue 27 Oct 2009 - 21:26

Da Bank wrote:
The Verdict:

After further review and looking at past decisions you can not leave combat from any Flight Spell.

Leaving combat is not a "regular" option in Mordheim. If you use the optional leave combat rules then this is an option for YOUR gaming group.

Using a spell to leave combat happens in the Magic phase and not in the normal phase it should.

The spell does not say you can do it so you can not do it.

Nowhere does it say spells are special and are immune to the normal rules of the game.

So basicly FoZ and like spells cannot be used to escape at all? Interesting, though I think I like Cianty's idea and would agree on it as a houserule.
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PostSubject: Re: Flight of Zimmerman   Today at 21:30

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