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JAFisher44
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Mon 5 Oct 2009 - 17:09

Actually the way I see it, if you have to eyeball a mini to see if you can see it, using the base doesn't make any sense at all. As the rules are written you literally look past your models head, and if any significant portion of the model is covered from that perspective it gets cover. If the base creates an imaginary block of sight blocking then you have to imagine where that line would be and imagine what it would block. This will lead to massive disagreements because many people will imagine things differently. Far easier to just use the actual figure.
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Mon 5 Oct 2009 - 19:08

Beginning in a campaign years and years ago, we actually use a cheap laser pointer for the "eyeballing." We do require the laser point to shine on a part of the target's body (not just dramatically-posed weapons nor feathers in caps) to count.

I haven't played with a group that uses the base-block method, but my untested opinion is to agree with JAFisher44. I do know for a fact that the laser pointer has quashed many arguments and allowed us to proceed with the game.
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Mon 5 Oct 2009 - 20:57

The only problem I have with actual, direct line of sight in the case of seeing through/past other models is for cases when you're drawing line of sight between another model's legs, arms, etc.

If your target is largely obscured by another model, but because of the pose of the model you can see parts of him, then I personally feel like it's safe to assume that the in-between model blocks line of sight. The pose of the model is not supposed to be representative of what he looks like all the time, and if he's running towards someone, weapons flailing, then I'm probably not going to be able to land a shot on a target that I spotted between his legs or just over his shoulder.

As I said though, the idea of a "block" isn't by any means a hard and fast ruling - quite the opposite. It's just something I use to give a general feel for the space that a model is taking up, rather than relying on the often exaggerated poses of the figures themselves, and to give a sense of movement to them rather than relying on the static pose. We've never really had issues or disagreements playing it this way, it's more of a given with our group that reasonably I'm not going to be able to nail an guy with a shot straight under my friend's arm.

In many ways I do wish that Mordheim had the light/heavy cover distinction, both to reign in shooting a little bit and to make something like this less of an issue (with Trick Shot deducting 1 from the cover penalty, rather than ignoring it altogether). If all I can see of the guy is a tiny bit, past my own warrior, then I'll have a -2 to hit and run an even greater risk of hitting my ally.

For me, this also stems indirectly from a desire for people to be able to model their figures relatively freely of tactical constraints - it would be really lame of someone to purposefully create a warband full of hunched over and crawling models to reap that tactical advantage, or even to resort to boring straight-up-and-down poses so that they can get behind cover more easily.

wyldhunt: I really like the laser pointer idea (in the past we've just used a piece of string to similar effect), it's a great way of determining line of sight for those tough calls! I may have to dig one up for our games.
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Sister Sister
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Mon 5 Oct 2009 - 22:51

JAFisher44 wrote:
Actually the way I see it, if you have to eyeball a mini to see if you can see it, using the base doesn't make any sense at all. As the rules are written you literally look past your models head, and if any significant portion of the model is covered from that perspective it gets cover. If the base creates an imaginary block of sight blocking then you have to imagine where that line would be and imagine what it would block. This will lead to massive disagreements because many people will imagine things differently. Far easier to just use the actual figure.

HtH is described on page 34 as: A
warrior can fight against enemies to his side, front, and rear. In reality the
fighters are constantly moving, dodging, and weaving as they struggle to kill
there adversaries.

HtH might be best represented by bases as the models in question are moving in a wild manner.

Also, the hiding rule makes specific mention to disregarding the dramatic poses of models... suggesting the intent is to spatially imagine or conceptualize situations.

im not suggesting they are to be treated the same but rather HtH is to be understood as moving mass...

i have already conceded to letting people shoot through/around HtH with my group but the idea of CC bases blocking line of sight on the same level would make things remarkably easy to visualize. maybe -2 to hit would be fun too. Say a model normally shoots on a 3-> now 5, on a 4(poor shot) it hit an opponents models, but on a 3(very poor shot) it would hit your models. could be fun... i think represents the risks and the difficulty of the shot. to conclude, the -1 modifier for hitting a model in cover is represented by this situation. however, due to its difficult nature a further -1 to hit the target you want to hit. you still hit a enemy model in the process if you roll a 4.
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Matumaros
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 6 Oct 2009 - 6:32

I quote Myntokk in each single word, well said!!!

And yes... I've seen with my own eyes and faced in battle a band build exactly the way you describe... all hunched over averlanders they were, really, it was no fun at all...

Cheers!!!
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Da Bank
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 6 Oct 2009 - 12:19

I have never had an issue playing this way (bases block LOS). It is pretty straight forward. I can't see how one could say other wise without trying it as I have for over 6-8 years and no one has complained about it. It wasn't even my idea but somone else's and it made sense.

We have tried laser pointers but you can't always get a pointer in the location of the model.


Either way model themselves do block LOS and this was been discussed in detail back in 2003 on the Yahoo Mordheim forum. I checked that forum after this question came up.

You must be able to see the model and if another model is in your LOS you can't really see it clearly. That is pretty obvious, regardless of the "moving around" thing listed for HTH as noted above.
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BurnTehWitch
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 6 Oct 2009 - 13:24

Da Bank, while I think your idea makes a lot of sense (basically a block of movement in the shape of the base to the height of the model (right?)) for models that are in CC, do you use the same rule of thumb for when a model is in the way just running down the field? i.e. if your model's base covers an enemy's model's base downfield, but you can still see say the enemy model's head over the shoulder of your model? Would you take that shot, or would you say that it falls inside of the "box" of LOS blocking that your model's base and height block?

By the way, this thread has been EXTREMELY helpful, and I just want to continue to thank everyone who has been on here helping out.
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Da Bank
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 6 Oct 2009 - 17:35

Burn...glad to help.

I found an email from 2004 from the creator of Mordheim on a similiar question.

4) Can you gain partial cover behind one of your own warband models? and would such an arrangement block your line of sight for shooting or magic?(can you tell a model in front of you to "get down" so he does not get shot in the back of the head.)
[Tuomas Pirinen] No. Other models are not scenery. They can block LOS completely however.
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Thu 8 Oct 2009 - 18:25

While Mordheim is definitely a different game than the games it was built on, in cases like this where the Mordheim rules are not as concise as I'd like them to be, I've been convinced by the more-experienced players here that it is very useful to look back at the inspirational material for help. I don't have WHFRP nor Necromunda, but I do have my ancient WHFB 4th Ed books. Here's what the WHFB Rulebook has to say on "Who Can Shoot:"

"Models can only shoot at targets that they can see. Their sight, and therefore their shot, is blocked if there is anything in between them and their intended target. This includes interposing models as well a scenary. Because of this, only the models in the front rank of a unit can shoot, because the models behind them will not be able to see past their friends to the target."

While "interposing models" is not enough to say that bases block LoS, the last sentence is pretty clear that bases do.

Da Bank, would you please include wording to reference bases blocking LoS in any future Rules Review to help clear up confusion on this point?

Honestly, the Mordheim wording of models moving around has been interpreted by all of our group members (independently by each of us) to mean that a model could shoot past his friends - after all, with the model in front moving around, a shot could be coordinated. Now, just like friendly bases blocking movement, I feel that I have a job to convince my fellow players that we've had it wrong all this time...
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Da Bank
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Fri 9 Oct 2009 - 4:26

I hear you there are some different ways to interpret things.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 11 Oct 2009 - 18:21

We came up with a new house rule to deal with this issue:

HTH blocks LOS for shooters on the same level. Also, models not in HtH but in base contact with friendly models in HtH are treated as Blocking LOS and in HtH so they are unavailable targets to shoot unless 100% can be seen by the shooter. models not in base contact with the HtH can be fired on if any part of the model can bee seen to the left or right of the combat, a miss by 1 will hit the combat.

we realized this created a slight advantage for combat models moving in groups... as it probably should.

so, we also afforded shooters in base contact to not be affected by the miss by 1 negating the errata rule when they are blocking LOS. friendly models not in BtB who are blocking LOS can be hit if the shot is missed by 1 on a die. this seemed to make logical sense as models who are close to one another should be able to communicate and work together better.

3 games played with no LOS disputes Smile hopefully this works well for our campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Today at 1:40

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