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BurnTehWitch
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PostSubject: Shooting Past CC   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 15:24

Hello all, I'm new to this forum and fairly new to Mordheim, but I've decided that this is by far the best mini game I've ever played!!!

I have a quick question to pose to this forum as you all seem very knowledgeable about the game and there was a slight conflict in a recent game I played.

Here's what happened:

model on same level is trying to shoot a model on the other side of combat where the shooters models are engaged in CC. a model behind the CC (that is not engaged in CC) can be partially seen by the shooter.

As far as I understand here are the rules pertaining to this topic:

*Rules state you must shoot at the closest model if you are on the same level.
you cant shoot at models in CC.

*The rule book does say that you CAN shoot a target who is further away IF the closest target is harder to shoot (i.e. two targets are in front of you, the closest target is behind some semblence of cover and the one who is further is not, therefore, the further one is easier to shoot, you may shoot him).

*rules do not include situations for shooting *around* your troops or CC.

*The rules are very clear about NOT shooting at your own troops.

*LOS has to be determined on a case by case basis.

*Also, the rulebook shows, that ALL you need to see is 1 tiny part of the model you're trying to shoot (i.e. just his hand, not a weapon, or a feather sticking off his cap).

So, with this, would you guys say, that the shooter can shoot his target, with the obvious -1 hit modifier

or

Is he not allowed to shoot the model, as he is attemtping to shoot around his "teammates"?

Thanks for the help and I'm looking forward to being active in this great community!
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 17:15

The shooter may indeed target an enemy past a CC involving his own warband members. The target does get the cover modifier.

There is official errata around shooting when a target gets a modifier from cover:

OFFICIAL Mordheim ERRATA: Page 30, 1st column; Insert the following new paragraph after the first paragraph and before the diagram:
“If a shot misses its target by 1, and that target claimed the -1 modifier for cover, then the shot strikes the cover instead. Normally this doesn’t matter, but in the case where a model is concealed behind another warrior, or when the cover is a powder keg, it might be extremely important!”

Take a look at look at The Mordheimer's Ultimate FAQ (http://www.mordheimer.com/articles/FAQ.htm) for more information like this centralized in one location (thanks, Mordheimer!).

You may want to further take a look at the Mordheim Annual 2002 (currently available at http://www.tabletopgeeks.com/downloads/ - thanks, Svenn and Tewfik!), Chaos on the Streets article. This article expands Mordheim scenarios to cover 3-6 players. The paragraph of interest is on page 27, right column, 1st full paragraph - shooting into close combat.

Our group has taken the logical extension of these two items back to shooting through CC to target an enemy. In the case where the shooter misses by 1, and hits the target's "cover" - the CC, we randomize the shot as normal between the models in CC.

BTW: this is one of the primary reasons my shooting heroes take Trick Shooter over other Shooting skills - so they can stay behind friendly models and not risk hitting them when targeting further enemies.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 20:42

Thanks very much, wyldhunt!

This issue got quite heated with a friend of mine who plays Sisters. He feels it makes shooting a little unbalanced, but I feel the reason they made the rules the way they are is to balance the game!

Thanks again you guys truly are a wealth of knowledge on here!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 23:56

there are many criteria for shooters... one of which is:
"... that you may not shoot at models that are engaged in
hand-to-hand combat, as the risk of hitting your comrades is too great."

following simple logic you can switch the wording to represent the reason
behind the rule...

(1) As the risk of hitting your comrades is too great, you may not shoot at
models that are engaged in hand-to-hand combat.

(2) Unlike in regular Mordheim rules, it is possible to shoot into close combat
in multilayer games, just as long as the shooters belong to different warband
than the models involved in close combat.


i think its safe to say GW doesn’t want you to shoot other members of your
warband.

So...



The shooter may indeed target an enemy past a CC involving
his own warband members. The target does get the cover modifier.
*NOPE*



There is official errata around shooting when a target
gets a modifier from cover:
OFFICIAL Mordheim ERRATA: Page 30, 1st column; Insert the
following new paragraph after the first paragraph and before the diagram:
“If a shot misses its target by 1, and that target claimed
the -1 modifier for cover, then the shot strikes the cover instead. Normally
this doesn’t matter, but in the case where a model is concealed behind another
warrior, or when the cover is a powder keg, it might be extremely important!”
*Well Done!* notice how it says another warrior... not one of your warriors.
including your models would clearly conflict with both rules pertaining to NOT
hitting your models... its not allowed. Including your opponents warriors would
not conflict with pre existing rules. Porly written errata, as are a great
portion of GW products.


-> i think this is a very fun rule. its just not intended
the way you are reading it. It makes more sense to have it read opponents
models. Think about it... you can hit an opposing model in front at no penalty,
but you would rather shoot at one behind them. If you slightly miss you still
hit the target in front J this rules is highly beneficial for shooting armies.
Don’t read too much into this rule, if they wanted to allow you to shoot your
models it would be represented by its own piece of errata.





You may want to further take a look at
the Mordheim Annual 2002 (currently available at http://www.tabletopgeeks.com/downloads/
- thanks, Svenn and Tewfik!), Chaos on the Streets article. This article
expands Mordheim scenarios to cover 3-6 players. The paragraph of interest is
on page 27, right column, 1st full paragraph - shooting into close combat.


*rule (2) above* since you obviously didn’t
bother to read it.





Our group has taken the logical
extension of these two items back to shooting through CC to target an enemy. In
the case where the shooter misses by 1, and hits the target's "cover"
- the CC, we randomize the shot as normal between the models in CC.


*Sounds like your group had the same
trouble we are having, hopefully this clarification helps you too*





I think the basic understanding for interpreting
rules is to make sense of what is given to you. GW tries there best to provide
rulebooks which are both clear and don’t have conflict within itself. It’s up
to players to not exploit the rules which are handled in a case by case basis… especially
in a friendly game.





The cover granted to a model on the
same level provided by one of the shooters models cannot be shot at or around.





CC is described on page 34 as: “A
warrior can fight against enemies to his side, front, and rear. In reality the
fighters are constantly moving, dodging, and weaving as they struggle to kill
there adversaries.”


-In reality CC would be best represented
by the space occupied by all models involved.





I don’t think you need a rule to infer
that CC blocks LOS. It makes it easy…





P.S. trick shooter is a great way to
get around this mess
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 1:25

Sister Sister wrote:
The shooter may indeed target an enemy past a CC involving his own warband members. The target does get the cover modifier.
*NOPE*

Yep

Sister Sister wrote:
There is official errata around shooting when a target gets a modifier from cover: OFFICIAL Mordheim ERRATA: Page 30, 1st column; Insert the following new paragraph after the first paragraph and before the diagram: “If a shot misses its target by 1, and that target claimed the -1 modifier for cover, then the shot strikes the cover instead. Normally this doesn’t matter, but in the case where a model is concealed behind another warrior, or when the cover is a powder keg, it might be extremely important!”
*Well Done!* notice how it says another warrior... not one of your warriors. including your models would clearly conflict with both rules pertaining to NOT hitting your models... its not allowed. Including your opponents warriors would not conflict with pre existing rules. Porly written errata, as are a great portion of GW products.

Your logic is flawed here. You are trying to change the wording of the errata based on assumptions you are making. But, lets look at your assumptions. You are trying to apply the assumption that you are never allowed to shoot and damage your own models under any circumstances. You are using this to suggest that GW intended to say enemy model in the appropriate quote. However, if the quote is enemy model there is no reason to include it. If a model is in cover behind another enemy model that means that the model providing cover is closer. Therefor, it must be the target. As per the rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 6:05

Sister Sister, you've got many more assumptions in your statements than even I would ever presume (and I've presumed a lot at various times). Let's look more closely at the errata:

OFFICIAL Mordheim ERRATA: Page 30, 1st column; Insert the following new paragraph after the first paragraph and before the diagram:
“If a shot misses its target by 1, and that target claimed the -1 modifier for cover, then the shot strikes the cover instead. Normally this doesn’t matter, but in the case where a model is concealed behind another warrior, or when the cover is a powder keg, it might be extremely important!”

Now, this errata clearly speaks to shooting beyond a closer warrior to a target further away. Points on this:

1. Expanding on JAFisher44's response: if you are on the same level as both targets, and if the closer warrior was an enemy, you could not shoot at the farther warrior unless it was Large, or you had a weapon allowing you to "pick target."

2. Going with "rules as written," this errata (as JAFisher44 also points out), has no mention of "only shooting past enemy warriors." The original shooting rule only states that "you may not shoot at models that are engaged in hand-to-hand combat". There is absolutely no restriction about shooting beyond models engaged in hand-to-hand combat.

3. If models in HtH always blocked LoS to farther targets, the errata would be pointless, so your interpretation that models in HtH always block LoS must be incorrect.

So, Sister Sister, do you allow 2nd ranks of warband shooters to shoot past their friends (not engaged in HtH) at enemies? Your interpretation seems to state that you may not take any shoot in which there is even a chance of hitting a friend.

However, shooting past friends to enemy targets is definitely allowed in the official rules. In these cases, if the shooter misses his target due to cover provided by a the shooter's friendly model, he definitely hits his friend. If he shoots past HtH (which involves a friend) to a farther enemy, he only has a chance to hit his friend. With this light on the subject, it is quite easy to interpret that shooting past HtH to target farther enemies is allowed (with far fewer assumptions than your interpretation).
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 10:35

Sister Sister, you've got many more assumptions in your statements than even I would ever presume (and I've presumed a lot at various times). Let's look more closely at the errata:

OFFICIAL Mordheim ERRATA: Page 30, 1st column; Insert the following new paragraph after the first paragraph and before the diagram:
“If a shot misses its target by 1, and that target claimed the -1 modifier for cover, then the shot strikes the cover instead. Normally this doesn’t matter, but in the case where a model is concealed behind another warrior, or when the cover is a powder keg, it might be extremely important!”

Now, this errata clearly speaks to shooting beyond a closer warrior to a target further away. Points on this:

1. Expanding on JAFisher44's response: if you are on the same level as both targets, and if the closer warrior was an enemy, you could not shoot at the farther warrior unless it was Large, or you had a weapon allowing you to "pick target." Good, you have just created a situation where the rule applies beyond the scope of this problem.

2. Going with "rules as written," this errata (as JAFisher44 also points out), has no mention of "only shooting past enemy warriors." The original shooting rule only states that "you may not shoot at models that are engaged in hand-to-hand combat". There is absolutely no restriction about shooting beyond models engaged in hand-to-hand combat. By attempting to shoot at a model beyond combat you allow for the possibility to shoot your model which is illegal. Refer to the large target or special skills that will allow you to imagine situations where this rule applies.


3. If models in HtH always blocked LoS to farther targets, the errata would be pointless, so your interpretation that models in HtH always block LoS must be incorrect. how about special skills and large targets ? also the above errata works for models who are freely picking targets from elevated positions. The person being shot declares a cover save from the model in front. A miss of 1 would hit the model in front. Hence the large bonus for having higher ground. Totally cool. Most people use ranged weapons from higher vantage points to maximize their abilities.

So, Sister Sister, do you allow 2nd ranks of warband shooters to shoot past their friends (not engaged in HtH) at enemies? Your interpretation seems to state that you may not take any shoot in which there is even a chance of hitting a friend. I think its fair to say you can shoot at any enemy model so long as one or more of your models doesn’t impair your LOS. Just like you can’t shoot into HtH because the risks are too great.

However, shooting past friends to enemy targets is definitely allowed in the official rules.Page? In these cases, if the shooter misses his target due to cover provided by a the shooter's friendly model, he definitely hits his friend.Page?or are you reading into the errata to much... If he shoots past HtH (which involves a friend) to a farther enemy, he only has a chance to hit his friend. With this light on the subject, it is quite easy to interpret that shooting past HtH to target farther enemies is allowed (with far fewer assumptions than your interpretation).


IT should require skill to shoot around your troops. You can’t shoot your troops. The errata can apply to other situation while not conflicting with other rules which are more clearly stated several times.

EDIT: Sister Sister, since you are relatively new here, I would assume that you are unaware that posts in red are reserved for the Administrator & the Moderators. Posting black on the dark grey backgound, you may have noticed, makes the post almost unreadable. Please refrain from using these colors in the future. Thanks MUCHO!
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 11:20

guys, please keep it a bit friendlier. nothing happened yet, and it might be just me, but I feel some tention.

how I read the rules is that a warrior can't shoot into combat because he's afraid to hit one of his friends. I think he CAN hit a friend by accident, so yes, I think you can shoot past CCs. Since I'm not sure, and I don't think this discussion will figure it out, you might want to make an agreement on this with your gaming group.

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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 11:33

@ Sister Sister: If you don't mind, please use a normal formatting for your text. Unless absolutely necessary, please do not use red. It is a colour that is mainly used by the mods. Thank you.

Yes, it sure is. Muahaha... *disappears*
-cianty

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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 11:52

Sister Sister wrote:
By attempting to shoot at a model beyond combat you allow for the possibility to shoot your model which is illegal. Refer to the large target or special skills that will allow you to imagine situations where this rule applies.
Well, the rules don't ever strictly state that you aren't allowed to shoot a friendly model. Here's what they do say:

a) you must target the nearest, unobstructed enemy on the same level or a large target.

b) you may not target an opponent that is in hand-to-hand combat with friendly models.

Condition b explicitly states that you may not target opponents that are in melee with your friends, but makes no mention of any other scenario in which you could potentially shoot a friendly model accidentally. The errata states that if you miss a shot by 1 and the cover to your target was "another warrior" then that warrior is hit. "Another warrior" does not exclude the possibility of another warrior on your team. Furthermore, the errata makes no attempts or references to specify that the covering model must be an opponent or can't be a friend.

So, while the rationale behind the "no shooting into combat" rule is that you don't want to run the risk of hitting a friendly model, shooting while running the risk of hitting a friendly model is still only prohibited by the rules in that one case. Just because the book mentions "the risk of hitting a friend" as the reason for this rule doesn't mean that you can extend that same reasoning to a different situation and still say that it's covered under the rules. The rules prohibit shooting for the reasons of accidentally hitting a friend in this case and this case only.

Sister Sister wrote:
wyldhunt wrote:
However, shooting past friends to enemy targets is definitely allowed in the official rules.
Page?
Originally the rules did not offer any special rules regarding the scenario we are discussing - that one model was providing cover to another. In this case, it was assumed that the model had cover as normal. If you hit you hit and if you missed you missed. The errata did nothing to change this, other than saying that if you miss by just 1 than the cover was hit. The rules still never state anywhere that you are not allowed to shoot when there is a possibility of accidentally hitting a friendly model, or that the target's cover can't be a friendly model, with the exception of specific conditions.



Now for me personally - I think that if you want to house-rule that warriors cannot shoot when running the risk of hitting a friendly model, that's fine. But as the rules are written, they only stop you from shooting and potentially hitting a friend on accident in that one case.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 3:19

Damn you cianty, your acting more like me and doing those childish stunts

Have at you sir

Sorry, Duce! The evil ninja socket monkey is spreading its desease it seems... Very Happy
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As for the black / red text my god my poor eyes, they have been destroyed trying to read it and as already stated red reserved for admins / mods etc etc, now pay me gold so I may ride ye old postman pat ride in mordheim

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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Fri 2 Oct 2009 - 9:29

Thanks again to all who have read and responded to this topic, my friend and I are still having a bit of trouble with this rule, but I think this has helped very much.

So much gratitude to all you Mordheim Sages!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Fri 2 Oct 2009 - 10:10

BurnTehWitch wrote:
Thanks again to all who have read and responded to this topic, my friend and I are still having a bit of trouble with this rule, but I think this has helped very much.

So much gratitude to all you Mordheim Sages!!!

No worries! Just remember that, ultimately, it's about enjoying the game and you don't want to get hung up on little rules squabbles. Regardless of what the rules are, you guys should play as you see fit with house rules where you think you need them. I don't know of one player that hasn't implemented some kind of house rule at some point.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sat 3 Oct 2009 - 19:50

Fist off i would like to apologize for the red writing, and any hard feelings twards anyone who i may have offended...

I haven't been playing Mordheim for to long but i can say without a doubt it is
my favorite miniature game . Having said that i feel the lack of rule
clarification and small model count provide for unproductive rule
confrontations-> so much can be decided on so little -> and the rules
concerning shooting are regrettably founded on "reasonable"
conditions.

so it seems house rules are necessary to fill in the gaps... the only problem i
have found with house rules thus far is one house rules leads to another, and
another...LAME.


I caved on the rule dispute...We have decided to solely use the errata as it pertains to shooting past/through
models in CC. regrettably the very person who advocated for the rule was rather
upset when i shot through CC with a sling only to put one of his models out of
action (bitter sweet moral victorry).



Given the errata rule i simply have to play different... Im up for the chalange!



I would love som feedback on the Hiding rule. or even some good feedback on house rules to overcome confrontation as it pertains to "reasonable" hiding.


thanks to all for their input on this subject!


-SS
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sat 3 Oct 2009 - 20:29

My question now is, when shooting beyond Close Combat, if all the models in front of you are in base to base essentially creating a wall in front of you, but you can technically see a model that is not engaged beyond there, between legs and the like, can you take the shot at the un-engaged model?

Just for clarification.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sat 3 Oct 2009 - 20:46

By the way I read the rules, two situations:

1. The models in CC include friendlies. In this case, you can shoot beyond to the next available target. The target does get the benefits of cover, and if you miss your target by 1 spot on the die, you hit one of the models providing cover instead.

2. The models in CC does not include friendlies. In this case, unless another rule allows you to target models further away (e.g., Large, Pick Target), you must shoot into the CC instead.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 4 Oct 2009 - 6:03

Bases block LOS, please keep this in mind.

You can not target your own models to shoot. It may not specify that but does it really need to be? Can you shoot your own models in Warhammer Fanatasy? There are "accident" that can happen from spells, cannons and etc but that is pretty much it.

A good "house rule" would be to allow you the option to shoot into HTH that involves your models. We do. It is actually fun.

Remember if the model is obscured by another model then it would be a -1 to hit.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 4 Oct 2009 - 8:29

Da Bank - I've been waiting for you to join this thread!

"Bases block LOS" - that's a new one on me, and supports Sister Sister's original interpretation. Questions, for my edification:

1. Where is that listed in the Mordheim rules? Unfortunately, I don't have them with me, but I don't remember that rule being listed - of course, I may well have missed it.

2. If that is the rule, then why did the errata on cover include shooting past a model to another model? Wouldn't the first model's base block LOS, and that situation never be allowed? If the errata is incorrect, please update its verbiage in the next Rules Review to remove the "concealed behind another warrior" clause - it does induce confusion.

3. How high up does the base block LOS? I know this is absolutely a nitpick question, but if a base (basically a 2D object) does block LOS in a 3D environment, I do need to know how high the base's blocking is considered to extend. My assumption would be to the head of the model.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 4 Oct 2009 - 9:08

I think Da Bank means the actual base blocks line of sight as a 3d element(although a short one, not that it blocks all line of sight that passes over it as if it were a cube. This could come into play with knocked down or stunned models.

I actually don't know if bases blocking LoS is a rule, i've never read it. I ignore bases in the rare instances that a model is knocked down and it's base gives it, or another model, cover.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 4 Oct 2009 - 11:44

OK,

Since I started this thread, here are the 2 situations that have brought this issue into question...

1st time. I wanted to shoot a model to the left of CC that I was in, but I'd say the left half of her body was covered by the CC. I could def see half her body and her entire head. I know this will be janky, but imagine the smileys are models (each smiley representing a base). This would be roughly what it looked like...

.........Smile

........... Smile Smile Smile
........... Smile Smile Smile



............Smile

Now I had a clear shot at half of her body.

The new situation is, there were six models in hand to hand about 12" away directly in front of my opponents halfling scout, while I had a dog about 10" beyond the CC, looking like this, (the pig is my Dog)

................. pig


............... Smile Smile Smile
............... Smile Smile Smile





.................... cyclops

Now, all six models were adjacent to each other in CC with bases touching, he claimed he could see a sliver of my dog, and proceeded to take the shot.

I think I understand what Da Bank is saying in regards to bases block LOS, but in the instance of the first situation that came up the base only covered half of my opponent's model and not the entire thing, and that was why I was contending that I should be able to shoot. I even told him that I would never try and shoot between one of my model's legs, because I think that would be ridiculous (essentially the bases block LOS).

Is this right Da Bank? Do these scenarios make sense?
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 4 Oct 2009 - 12:21

I know that this is not the hard and fast ruling, but I guess the way I would generally see it is this - the model is there for show but the physical space taken up by the model is a rectangular prism that is the dimensions of his base by however tall he/she may be. That means, if another model's base is completely behinde your model's base, and you can only see your target between the arms, legs, etc, then you can't really see the model. It has to be assumed that your guys aren't running around the streets in their action poses with arms out to the side and legs running.

So, I would say that a model provides cover if he's halfway into your line of site to the other guy, but if he's directly between you and your target than he's fully blocking line of sight regardless of whether or not you can see through little gaps in the model.

In the case of models in base-to-base contact, my general feeling is that you cannot see through them - they are essentially like one model with a larger base for the purposes of line of sight.

Another note on accidentally hitting your own guys - I personally could see house rules that affect warbands differently. While Sisters of Sigmar are more benevolent and unlikely to shoot at risk of hitting a sister-in-arms, a skaven may not be so worried about knocking his buddy in the back of the head with a sling stone.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 4 Oct 2009 - 12:57

I also am unaware of any rule that says that bases block line of sight.

The problem with house rules that give advantages to some warbands and not others based on fluff is that those considerations aren't taken into account in the current point system. In other words, it's not fair.

The major problem with the rules of Mordheim is that they are poorly writen. They are too descriptive where it isn't important, and leave out massive amounts of info where it could have been really helpful.

The rule book has this to say about LOS:

To shoot at a target, a model must be able to see it, and the only way to check this is to stoop over the tabletop for a model’s eye view. Models can see all around themselves (ie, 360°), and they may be turned freely to face in any direction before firing.

Obvously, not very specific. It would have been more helpful if they offered a bit more guidance. Perhaps changing it to say:

To shoot at a target, a model must be able to see at least one third of it.

Yes, there would still be arguments over what constituted one third of a model but at least the rule would have been clear. As it is we have a small pictoral diagram that shows us a few examples of models in and out of LOS.

The model out of LOS still has the feather on his hat visible, which implies that some small part of the model may be exposed without exposing the model to fire, but obviously as little as a face and an arm is enough to be shot at.

I personally house rule that a full third of the model must be exposed to be shot at. If there is a dispute we roll for it.
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BurnTehWitch
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 4 Oct 2009 - 14:35

Ok, I think that some of this is really starting to make sense to me. It is tough, because the rules should be a bit more hard lined than they are, but you guys are helping a lot.

I think the idea that the models create a block in the size of the base and as high as the top of the model makes complete sense.

I also think that this rule in particular really helps/hurts warbands. This seems to be the reason why we are having so much trouble with this rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Sun 4 Oct 2009 - 17:42

JAFisher44 wrote:
The problem with house rules that give advantages to some warbands and not others based on fluff is that those considerations aren't taken into account in the current point system. In other words, it's not fair.
That's true, I guess I wouldn't say that you should make it a strict rule or anything like that, but rather aim for "playing in character" as a standard attitude towards gaming, and generally speaking if you're playing one of the nobler races, don't wield them like backstabbing cutthroats.
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PostSubject: Re: Shooting Past CC   Mon 5 Oct 2009 - 16:34

The rules are not specific to say that. That is how I have played.

If you must "eyeball" a model when shooting at it, it is a safe bet and fair and balanced way to use the bases to represent that.
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