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 Is critizism a bad thing??

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Trulsa
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PostSubject: Is critizism a bad thing??   Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 13:47

I guess that I might be stepping on one and anothers toes right now but I have thought about this a long time and I need some answers Embarassed

It is very often that people say: Great looking miniatures, so cool, I love your painting and so on... (not said all the time, just very often)

But I rarely see: Nice looking but I don't like this and you could do this instead to improve.

I have seen a lot of times, figures that I might consider to be only basic table top standard (including some of mine, I don't consider myself as a good painter even if I think I am better then the worst) and the only people write is: so cool minis. Great looking and so on...

I would LOVE to hear that some details could be better and do this and that to improve your figures or do this with the greenstuff and see if you can improve... I LOVE positive critizism!!!

And of course it would be terrible nettikette to write that a figure is butt ugly, You suck or other really bad critizism, I don't think that belongs on a board like this (Or any other board) since it is only negative and pure mean...

Isn't it anyone else that have thought about this or should I just shut up Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 13:59

I do agree that there is a lot of "very nice" and similar comments being thrown about on the net, especially on Warseer. It can get very repetitive. Sometimes it also feels as if there is no effort being made to respond and it's just a post-count boosting act. This is often evidenced by people asking questions that the information has been quite clearly discussed in the same post as the pictures.

The best place I've found for constructive criticism has been on The Conclave. When the members there post a response it is usually because they have something worthwhile to say. There will suggestions on how to improve nything they feel needs fixed/added to. Of course, it's only Inquisitor models that are allowed to be posted there so no good if you want feedback on your latest Mordheim figures. Wink

These days, I rarely post any comments on models unless somethintg sufficiently moves me to comment. Yes, it might be to say I like a model, but I'll give a reason why I like it. Or I'll say what I think needs improving. I never post to dismiss somebody's work completely though. After all, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" as the saying goes.
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 14:02

I never posted it, but I really do agree on this
I think people sometimes are a bit too nice when it comes to judging models. When I post pics of my models (which I rarely do) I rather see some good criticism then some meaningless 'good jobs'. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing that people like my minis, but I like it better when they point out what they like, and what they don't like.

and agreeing with Catferret, I usually only post when I feel I can add something to the topic or if I find it important to notify everyone of what I think Razz.

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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 14:10

Yeah I agree with ya, personaly I find that CONSTRUCTIVE critism can be helpful and if I post work any feedback will be welcome as there is a good pool of talent on this forum.

As the two responders said, I only like to comment on someones work when I can either add something to the discussion or their work is so good that I feel the need to express my wonder.

Well said for raising the issue though and coming out with what you thought/felt. Just get ready for some mug slinging (he says while looking through some old threads Twisted Evil )

Haha just messing around.

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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 14:13

I post now and then and sometimes I say just great looking model, but then it will be extra special ultra good models, where I am really stunned, this is one of the best things I have ever seen - golden deamon standard Razz Like we have one guy that makes such fantastic greenstuff sculptings here at the forum and each time I look at his new things I am just stunned... I want him here and now and that he teach me how to Wink
But if I don't have anything good to say I rather sit quiet or wait until I have better time to really post a constructive post where I say, nice models but this and this could be better... Now I am not that good my self and the people here are stunning at their things and I have learned a lot here to that I think have improved my painting skills...

I must end this with saying that I am impressed with so many but I feel a little empty just writing that it is great miniatures in each and every thred, that doesn't mean that I don't like them, it is because I don't want to sound empty when I post...

And well, as I said in the first thread, I guess I might be stepping on some peoples toes with this but it is not meant as an evil post or me wanting to critizise but I want critizism sometimes, I really need it...And I really hope that no one gets to offended by this...
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 14:19

Quote :
And well, as I said in the first thread, I guess I might be stepping on some peoples toes with this but it is not meant as an evil post or me wanting to critizise but I want critizism sometimes, I really need it...And I really hope that no one gets to offended by this...

Don't worry about it, I honestly don't think anyone will be offended and would be suprised if they are were. You have explained yourself very well in your posts.

So don't fret and post some more WIP pics!!

Edit - finally realised how to get a quote up Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 15:34

Yeah, I guess I do agree. And I don't think you're stepping on any toes, Trulsa.

Personally I don't have the time to post as much as I'd like, let alone post detailed reponses everywhere (not that I am in the position to give painting advice).

When it comes to not posting or just giving a small note of encouragement and praise to make the painter feel good and keep on working, then I definately go with the latter. We currently have 625 members and a tiny percentage of them is posting and even less seem to frequent all the subforums. Also, threads easily slip your attention (I've seen that happen many times - when there were new posts but not indicated as such). No one ever gets the attention they deserve, so I think as small "cool" or "great stuff" is way better than not posting at all.

If you are specifically looking for critique, tips and suggestions, then just ask for it - explicitly - and I'm sure people will do so.

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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 0:17

I take it on a case by case basis... if someone has stellar painting, I'm more likely to give them criticism if something seems off or I have a question about their choice of color or they blatantly missed a spot. With someone who posts what looks to be his first army however, and I'm likely to just give him positive comments to boost his spirits unless he specifically asks how to improve something.
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 0:33

Being able to take critique is even more important than being able to give it. I'm a graphical designer by trade and without that cornerstone, I'd be only doing half-baked crap. The thing is that when you're trying to give critique to somebody's art, they most of the time they just start flaming you, roll into a ball and tell their friends how gay you are. That's the common deviantart way. "nobodi maek fun of mai inuyasha naruto crossuver crayon drwins >8( "

I admit that this forum has the slight trend of giving only roses and no sticks at all, but we have a fairly friendly community going on here. I'd say people should start giving out more pointers and it just might lead to even better results. The good thing to remember is that it doesn't always mean you should say: "I do not like this". Change that to: "I would have done it this way, what do you think?"

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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 3:04

I gotta admit I DO tend to avoid giving critiques...words of praise for the effort & general encouragement is my forte. HOWEVER, you are ABSOLUTELY correct. If comment & criticism are asked for, a few words of advice ARE called for. I'll make an effort to do so henceforth...SEE, I took this thread as constructive criticism .

That said, I had a couple of fellows I used to game with who, I later found out felt they were somehow competing against my stuff, decided they couldn't do as well, & quit painting entirely. I would advise any painter, neophyte or veteran, not judge their work too harshly on what other folks can accomplish with brush or sculpting tool. The only person we are in competion with is ourselves; challenge yourself & you will improve...I hope that did sound pontifical.
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 4:10

Good effort, but I really don't like this thread, you should post some pics of minis to interest us, and give examples (quote ALL the Deaf' posts ).

(but I like to criticize, and better the work is, more I criticize, because I want it perfect, like I did with the "too blue" windows from Cianty's Blue Wolf Inn )
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 6:22

People aren't always looking for criticism when they post their miniatures. Sometimes they just want to show them off and have people say encouraging things about them.

I think it's best to restrict criticism to those threads where people have actually asked for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 6:44

Lanyssa Ryssyll wrote:
Good effort, but I really don't like this thread, you should post some pics of minis to interest us, and give examples (quote ALL the Deaf' posts ).

LOL!!

Lanyssa Ryssyll wrote:
(but I like to criticize, and better the work is, more I criticize, because I want it perfect, like I did with the "too blue" windows from Cianty's Blue Wolf Inn )

Ah, I remember (wow, that's already long ago - can't believe you're mentioning this now Smile ) And yes, that was much appreciated indeed! thumbsup


meerkat wrote:
People aren't always looking for criticism when they post their miniatures. Sometimes they just want to show them off and have people say encouraging things about them.

I think it's best to restrict criticism to those threads where people have actually asked for it.

How do they say?

QFT


I think the consensus is that if people specifically ask for criticism on their works, we will try to deliver that and otherwise we'll usually just speak a word of encouragement to keep the motivated. At least that's what I do.

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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 7:50

Positive criticism is a good thing. But I think it's better to start with "Great job" and after that trying to give some good advice.


The words "wonderful mini" or "good job" mean not always the same and they don't mean "Golden Demon level". When someone starts with painting minis, every new progress is a wonderful work - because this painter had just started with this hobby. And we all know that it's not so easy! So even if the mini looks not so good, I will comment positively any new progress that this painter does. Because it IS wonderful work when someone tries to paint so little minis (have you ever talked with your parents about this hobby? They always say "I would never paint so little mini! Wow!"). We should encourage these people. And it isn't motivating, when someone judges the mini thinking "Ok, let's look what's bad".


And I don't like subjective criticism ("I have another idea for witch hunters, so I don't like yours" or "I don't like your choice of colors, looks terrible"). It's a very rare type of criticism here and that's why I love this forum Smile Because it's nice to read "add more water to your paints", but "your ideas are hopeless, I'd never use this mini for elf ranger/ witch hunter / however..."... no, this is not a motivation! It's really the only forum I know, where this type of criticism almost doesn't exist. Isn't it good? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 8:23

Quote :
(have you ever talked with your parents about this hobby? They always say "I would never paint so little mini! Wow!")

Well, this isn't a problem for me since it was my father that let me try painting his miniatures for the first time Razz I will post pictures of his mordheim city later to and let you see how amazing he is Smile

Quote :
And I don't like subjective criticism ("I have another idea for witch hunters, so I don't like yours" or "I don't like your choice of colors, looks terrible"). It's a very rare type of criticism here and that's why I love this forum Because it's nice to read "add more water to your paints", but "your ideas are hopeless, I'd never use this mini for elf ranger/ witch hunter / however..."... no, this is not a motivation! It's really the only forum I know, where this type of criticism almost doesn't exist. Isn't it good?

I agree with you totally, if the miniatures have crazy colors I might say something about it but the examples you are giving are negative critizism and I think that I said in my first post that negative critizism isn't a good thing and that it is great that people don't use it here.

Quote :
How do they say?

QFT

What does this mean??

Quote :
People aren't always looking for criticism when they post their miniatures. Sometimes they just want to show them off and have people say encouraging things about them.

I think it's best to restrict criticism to those threads where people have actually asked for it.

You might be totally right here, but don't people also want to know what it is with the mini that people like?? I do...

Now each letter takes a minute to write since my daughter have to help me oth so I won't quote any one more right now Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 9:44

Don' tell me you will not criticize my choice of colour :


Scorpion green and Blazing orange... So weird and ugly

(hehe, I do the first part of the job for you Trulsa, now quote some posts I know, I'm a stupid Gierburg's jester escaped on this forum )
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 10:01

Well, I love constructive comments to be honest, even though I seldom use it due to my stubbornness, and then later realise it might indeed have been better to do as suggested... (like the dead horses Alan Wink)
But yeah, sometimes I do see things I would like to see improved, but don't always know wether or not critique would be appreciated. If asked for by the painter, sure, I'll comment, but if not, I don't know most of you, don't know your skills, age, setup or teachers... so how could I know if this is your best, or if you have way more to achieve?
I know for certain that Matt can achieve more than he does now, mainly due to haste (2 warbands and an army in 2 months? Razz) and when I'm working with the guy, I like to give some pointers, and criticism, but sometimes tend to get a bit too harsh, or expectant... so it's hard to determine the amount of comments someone can take before he/she decides to quit alltogether, and that's why I tend to hold back most of the time...

So maybe we should figure out a way to determine the amount of comments desired? (not having to return to 2 pages of critique leading to me throwing out all my models and paint, just to pick up drinking for a hobby Razz)
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 10:02

Lanyssa Ryssyll wrote:


stupid Gierburg
???

well I know that's not constructive?!
sorry for the horribly cheesy and rather lame joke... (come to know me and you'll realise that's all I've got right guys?)
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 10:08

meerkat wrote:
People aren't always looking for criticism when they post their miniatures. Sometimes they just want to show them off and have people say encouraging things about them.

I think it's best to restrict criticism to those threads where people have actually asked for it.

I AGREE! Often folks posting are trying to contribute to the Forum community by showing their work, which, while it may not be of award winning caliber, IS the VERY BEST they are capapble of, at least, to date. A kind word here often is a welcome boost to the posters entusiasm.
Normally someone looking for critiques ends their post with: "comments & criticism welcome" or such. If offering a critique, it is appropriate to also offer a solution. Overly harsh criticism IS NOT either in the spirit of good fellowship or the philosophy of the Forum.


Last edited by DeafNala on Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 11:44; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 10:40

Lanyssa Ryssyll wrote:
I know, I'm a stupid Gierburg's jester escaped on this forum )

LOL

I love the jesters!

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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 12:13

well, I guess all of the above sums it up pretty well
some folks are looking for feedback, others probably less, wanting only to share what they have accomplished
it's a thin line to walk

but ... I think if you wanna show the world what you've accomplished, you should be open to a little critique sometime. Most of us are not perfect, so any feedback may sprout ideas how we can become better.
We don't necessarily have to agree with the feedback we get.
Receiving none or empty feedback seems a bit pointless to me.

Myself, I post for two reasons solely ;
1) because I hope someone else enjoys looking or reading my posts and I have tremendous fun with all the replies and feedback I'm getting
2) and most importantly for receiving feedback on my painting and (almost inexistable) terrain building and get new or better ideas.

I haven't got much experience with posting, but I think I will enjoy the negative critiques even more (I may be a bit weird and not represent the average civilian ...) I suppose I know what I do ok. It's the stuff that I do wrong or can not accomplish very well that bothers me.
So every word of advice as to how to get better at some things is worth several gold crowns to me ...

So Trulsa, I think I agree completely with you, and there's no stepping toes involved.
On the other hand, it is true that there are several points we cannot always take into consideration. (age, wanting tabletop or display quality, experience/years at painting, etc. ...) So, when giving critique, we should consider our words very carefully for not coming over too harshly.
However, I think that someone who can not take 1 word of critique, should not be posting.

So, all you guys above, please let me know ALL that is not good enough about my posts

I'm from Belgium : I can take it.
;-)
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 12:27

I really think this is a very interesting discussion and I think it is very healthy for this forum. Keep them thoughts coming, everybody! cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 13:30

Trulsa: "QFT" means "Quoted For Truth"

I'm of two minds on the subject.

For me personally, I do think that it's nice to know if I'm doing something wrong or if I can do something better. I've also found that sometimes you miss something, or accidentally get a dab of color in the wrong place, and you don't catch it until the photos. In a sense posting on the forum can be like screening your miniatures, in a sense asking "did I miss anything?" to more scrutinizing eyes. There may also be techniques that I haven't mastered, or even discovered, yet, so it's nice to have more veteran painters saying "hey, it looks good but when i paint abc i do xyz, here's how:"

At the same time though, and this is probably true for the large majority of forumgoers here and elsewhere, I am not a Golden Demon or 'Eavy Metal level painter. And what's more, I don't ever intend to be. Sure, I would like to be able to paint that well, but I don't have the time and motivation to actually push myself to that level (maybe not the artistic talent either...). Different people have different opinions on what constitutes "tabletop quality" - I've been to tournaments where the bare-bones requirement for a painted army was at least three colors on every miniature (including the undercoat). I'd say at least one level of shading, whether it's highlighting or drybrushing, shows a tabletop quality miniature. Other people might say more than that, then you can get into ink washes, lighting effects, etc.etc. I consider most of my own painting to be good, not great, and of playable tabletop quality. If someone else posts models that are good, but not great, then I'll say something like "nice work" or "cool minis" and typically point out the ones I like best because they're good. There's a difference between stating that someone's work is "good" and "great" or "a masterpiece," and I personally do think that giving a good but not rave review is still helpful and not really "empty praise."

Also, while it's always helpful to get consrtuctive feedback, it's a bit of an ego blow if all anyone says is how I can improve. The occasional "nice job" or "good work" is good even if it doesn't tell me what or why. If I'm posting something to share then I'll generally just say "hey, here's this hired sword I painted up last night" but if I want criticism, especially on a specific aspect of the model/warband, I'll sign off with something like "how are the colors? tell me what you think" or "comments and criticism welcome"

EDIT: Sorry to be obtuse, I didn't even actually answer the original question. In a nutshell I'll say no, criticism is not a bad thing, but before or when offering commentary you need to tread lightly so to speak, because the end-goal is meant to be positive and, as Skavenblight aptly pointed out, everyone builds their painting skills in discrete steps. I have models that I can look back on and think "ugh what was I doing?", but at the time I was extremely proud of myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 14:29

I think it is always good to look at something at least twice before you critisise it. I have often looked at something and initialy not liked it but on the second look I often find I quite like it and my first reaction was mostly down to suprise probably from a completely new idea.

I also think constructive critism is equaly, if not more, usefull for people trying to imitate someones work. for example on the chaos dwarfs forum I had made some bull centaurs from chaos knights and someone pointed out that I could have improved them by shortening the horses. although it was to late for me to go back and change the models if someone else desided they wanted to do something similar it would help them a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 1:34

Good point, turquoise dwarf; giving a POSITIVE critique of a WIP piece is VERY helpful. The piece is at that stage where changes are still quite possible. Critiquing a completed mini is less useful as it is just that: COMPLETED. The chances that the Guy is going to go back & rework the piece are vertually non existent...SO you may have merely made the Guy feel bad about something he had been proud enough of to post.
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PostSubject: Re: Is critizism a bad thing??   Today at 5:32

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