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MasterSpark
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Mon 23 Mar 2015 - 11:48

I haven't read through the thread in its entirety so I might be re-stating a point but I've found that the -2 to hit penalty for the bonus attack has worked out the best for us. Compared to the alternative where you buff shields, slapping such a big penalty on a second weapon increases the value of halberds and other two-handed things. Two attacks at S3 beats one at S4, but if one of the two attacks will only hit on a 6 then it's not quite so certain.
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Mon 23 Mar 2015 - 15:51

MasterSpark wrote:
I haven't read through the thread in its entirety so I might be re-stating a point but I've found that the -2 to hit penalty for the bonus attack has worked out the best for us. Compared to the alternative where you buff shields, slapping such a big penalty on a second weapon increases the value of halberds and other two-handed things. Two attacks at S3 beats one at S4, but if one of the two attacks will only hit on a 6 then it's not quite so certain.

Also what I found and posted on p. 7 here!

Aipha wrote:
How about -2 on off-hands?

I was reading through this thread and surprised this suggestion was not there - hence why I am making this post. Credits for inspiring me to use this -2 modifier on the off-hand goes to TrueLancer.

I've made a calculation showing what this means for the average henchman.

All calculations are made using the following formula:
((Chance of succesful Hit * Chance of succesful Wound * Chance of opponent failing AS) / 216) * Attacks
Credits goes to: http://mathhammer.blogspot.dk/2009/01/super-simple-method-216.html

Henchman with 1 attack:

WS3, S3 vs. WS3, T3, 5+ AS
Halberd: 28%
Axe/Axe: 28%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 27%

WS4, S4 vs. WS3, T3, 5+ AS
Halberd: 56%
Axe/Axe: 66%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 63%

WS4, S3 vs. WS4, T4, 5+ AS
Halberd: 21%
Axe/Axe: 19%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 18%

WS4, S4 vs. WS3, T4, 5+ AS
Halberd: 44%
Axe/Axe: 50%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 47%

WS4, S4 vs. WS4, T4, 5+ AS
Halberd: 33%
Axe/Axe: 33%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 32%

Henchman with 2 attacks:

WS3, S4 vs. WS3, T3, 5+ AS
Halberd: 83%
Axe/Axe: 78%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 76%

WS4, S4 vs. WS3, T3, 5+ AS
Halberd: 111%
Axe/Axe: 111%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 107%

WS4, S4 vs. WS3, T4, 5+ AS
Halberd: 88%
Axe/Axe: 83%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 81%

WS4, S4 vs. WS4, T4, 5+ AS
Halberd: 66%
Axe/Axe: 58%
Axe/Mace or Axe/Sword: 57%

As we can see, a lot of the time the Halberd is on par with the Axe/Axe combo. With 2 attacks, a Halberd is usually better, but with 1, you might serve better with two weapons. Even though this is overall true, the main point is, that they're close to equal a lot of the time - at least closer than -1 to hit, and a lot closer than no modifiers. I've made a lot of other calculations with other stats as well, but they all show the same thing - this is fairly balanced.

Hope this inspires people to try it out, we use it in our house rules, and it seems to work wonders. It also brings extra joy, to roll a six, when it's all you can hit with - and it actually happens quite a lot ^_^

And I of course have a lot more calculations, which can be sent to anyone interested (chances here are to take an opponent OOA).
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CygnusMaximus
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Wed 1 Apr 2015 - 9:18

I play with the exact same rule Goglutin proposed a few pages back (-1 to all attacks when using two weapons, ambidextrous added to the combat skills). The only thing that I want to add, though, is that models have the option to attack with only one of their weapons, thereby negating the -1 modifier to their attacks. What that generally means is that dual-wielders will use both weapons when they need a 4+ or better to hit, but against more skilled (or fear-causing opponents) will attack with just one to increase their odds of hitting.

For those that use the -2 to off-hand attacks, does this require players to specify which weapon is in the off hand or do you allow them to switch at will? For example, if I have a warrior with a club and an axe, I'll use the club in my strong hand and the axe in the other for unarmoured opponents but would switch for those with armour. Also, do you have to use the sword in your strong hand to parry? If you don't, do you have a penalty?

Those questions are really why I prefer the blanket -1 to attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Sun 23 Aug 2015 - 3:04

CygnusMaximus wrote:
I play with the exact same rule Goglutin proposed a few pages back (-1 to all attacks when using two weapons, ambidextrous added to the combat skills).  The only thing that I want to add, though, is that models have the option to attack with only one of their weapons, thereby negating the -1 modifier to their attacks.  What that generally means is that dual-wielders will use both weapons when they need a 4+ or better to hit, but against more skilled (or fear-causing opponents) will attack with just one to increase their odds of hitting.

For those that use the -2 to off-hand attacks, does this require players to specify which weapon is in the off hand or do you allow them to switch at will?  For example, if I have a warrior with a club and an axe, I'll use the club in my strong hand and the axe in the other for unarmoured opponents but would switch for those with armour.  Also, do you have to use the sword in your strong hand to parry?   If you don't, do you have a penalty?

Those questions are really why I prefer the blanket -1 to attacks.
Good points on the offhand discussion. We prefered using the blanket -1 and created Ambidextrous Combat Skill.
Next to it we created "Shield Fighter" Combat Skill, allow you an extra attack with the shield at no penalty using User Strength and no special rules.
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GWengerzink
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Thu 27 Aug 2015 - 6:43

Has anybody tried to give dual-wield (only) the chance of a second attack?
An example: if I fight with two hand weapons, I flip a coin, if I win the flip my figure gets an extra attack. Otherwise he will only strike with one (the main) weapon. This gives dual-wield a 50% chance of getting an extra attack, representing the chance of striking an extra blow if there is a hole in the enemy defence.

This might aswell be increased or decreased, maybe 40-60%, but a coin flip doesn't take that much time, compared to rolling a die and counting the modifiers. (As the game is slow as it is).

What are your thoughts?
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Minion
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Wed 30 Sep 2015 - 17:00

Speaking of trying out rules, has anyone tried using 8th edition's parry save for one-handed close combat weapons and shields in Mordheim?
I'm planning to start playing with a local Warhammer group and several people have expressed an interest in Mordheim. Dual-wielding vs. shields always was the great unresolved issue of the game, and the parry save struck me as the perfect solution, so I've been thinking about recommending we implement it to make the experience smoother for everyone.
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Wed 4 Nov 2015 - 11:03

Never tried that. Considered it, but the difficulty is how it stacks/combines with other weird 'ward-like but not quite' abilities.

I'm the TrueLancer mentioned earlier.

We're running our yearly Mordheim again, albeit under a different organizer this year.

But -2 to offhand attacks is still the best and easiest system for balance you could ever ask for when combined with a little change to Parry. For hitting on 3/4/5, it puts an extra attack that hits on 5/6/cannot hit, which helps to balance it against shields and parries.

Dual-wielding models are at a disadvantage with no WS and against Fear-causing models. They're also less capable of stacking critical hits.

Parry was changed from 'just roll higher' to 'roll an attack roll back as if it were an attack - hits succeed | You may pick and choose when you parry'.

I'm pretty sure something needs to be done to make armor a little bit better, but at least for the hands, this really solves lots of problems. It makes armor, multiple weapons, BIG weapons, shields, bucklers, swords, all of these have a different role without one being heads-and-shoulders better than the rest.
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Sun 29 Nov 2015 - 10:50

Concerning stacking special saves, I believe there is a rule somewhere in either Mordheim or WFB 5th edition which states that you may only use one additional save, and always the best one. I attempted to write a rule for parry saves in Mordheim, but I can't remember where exactly I got the wording on multiple saves from:

Parry Save
If a warrior is fighting with a shield and a close combat weapon not subject to the rule Two-handed, then he has an additional saving throw of +6 against any close combat attacks. This save is never modified and is taken after all other armour saves. If a model has more than one additional save, simply use the best one. Additionally, warriors subject to Frenzy and mounted models may not claim the parry save.


or


Parry Save
If a warrior is fighting with a shield and a close combat weapon not subject to the rules Unwieldy, Difficult to use, or Two-handed, then he has an additional saving throw of +6 against any close combat attacks. This save is never modified and is taken after all other armour saves. If a model has more than one additional save, simply use the best one. Additionally, warriors subject to Frenzy and mounted models may not claim the parry save.
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Tue 1 Dec 2015 - 0:16

That sounds very much like the 8th edition Parry Save rule.

In 7th (and possibly earlier editions - I didn't play those), a model with a hand weapon and shield gained an additional +1 to their save in hand-to-hand combat. 8th edition changed it so that a model with a hand weapon and shield was entitled to a 6++ so long as they were not mounted or Frenzied. It also acts as a Ward Save (and 8th had the 'use your best special save' rule, so no ward saving and regeneration saving, but these were used in addition to armor saves).

It is used entirely differently from the way Mordheim uses Parry (which is to discount specific hits in combat, a 'skill' save as opposed to 'armor').

It sounds like you might have gotten it from the 8th edition's book?
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Thu 3 Dec 2015 - 9:00

It's taken straight from WFB 8th Edition. I started to get back into Warhammer/Mordheim a couple of months back after a decade-long absence, and the Parry Save rule immediately struck me as the perfect way to make shields more viable in Mordheim. That's why I'm curious if anyone has tried using it.
The "Parry Save" rule would go under the Shield entry in the Weapons & Armour section.
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Mon 24 Sep 2018 - 7:06

We are only just starting to play Mordheim, having played fantasy since 2nd -3rd ed.

We've decided on the following rules changes to stop certain spamming and increase model survivability,  and would appreciate some feedback before we start the campaign:

1. fighting with 2 weapons
-1 to hit for both weapons. new combat skill 'two-weapon fighting' to be added. Having this skill allows you to attack with both weapons without the -1

2. Shields
Give +1 armour as normal. If you have 'hand weapon' and shield (sword, axe, mace, hammer) then you can parry an extra CC attack per turn, or parry one ranged attack (not including gunpowder weapons)

3. Armour
All armour costs halved (light armour, Hvy armour, helmet). Except for starting warbands Gromril and Ilthimar cost doubled. People are likely to have more money as armour cheaper so stops everyone wearing 'special' armours.

4. Missile weapons
limited availability. No restriction on missile weapons with range 6" or less.
Up to 50% of heroes (rounding down) can have missile weapons with range greater than 6"
Up to 50% of henchmen (rounding up) can have missile weapons with range greater than 6"

5. Great weapons
Great weapons strike in initiative order when charging

6 lost gear
When a member dies roll a dice individually for their pieces of gear
On battle won item retained on a 4+
On a battle lost item retained on a 5+
For armour its retained on a 6+ always (its been stabbed, burned, clubbed, electrocuted etc)


Does anyone have any feedback as to how these changes might work/not work?
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Mon 24 Sep 2018 - 9:42

1. Sounds like a good fix to the dominance of dual-wielding.

2. Interesting, allowing the shield-user to parry a missile attack. Sounds cinematic & pretty cool, will be curious to hear how it works out.

3. Armour price is a matter of taste; I'm usually happy with the rarity of armour in Mordheim, but that's just me, & making armour cheaper does allow players to use more armoured models. But doubling the price of Gromril & Ithilmar armour seems excessive -- going off memory, doesn't that make Gromril armour 300 gc, or more? I'd just leave the price of those items as written, otherwise no-one will take them.

4. I'm fine with the principle of limiting the number of missile weapons, but I'd say simplify it to 50% of the entire warband, heroes & henchmen. I find heroes are usually loaded for hand-to-hand anyway, while henchmen provide fire-support; so a starting Mercenary warband might have five heroes with hth weapons & three marksmen with crossbows. Also, you might find (this experience varies) shooting is so ineffective you don't need to limit the number of missile weapons. That's for you to judge.

5. This might make Great Weapons too good. Try it out though, because they're a rather underpowered in the original rules (until the wielder takes Strongman). If they prove too good without penalties, maybe split the difference & impose a -1 Initiative on the wielder when determining combat order.

6. This sounds fine -- maybe also allow warbands to 'search' for special items, modifying the dice roll, to represent extra effort looking for particularly rare or specialist goods, at the expense of other things. So a warband could abandon two other items while trying to recover the dead leader's Ithilmar sword, & apply a +2 to their dice roll. Just a thought!

Overall, looks like a fair set of house rules, which will probably work to limit massive dual-wielding & sling-spamming -- the two classic complaints of Mordheim!
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Thu 27 Sep 2018 - 23:10

@Minion
We considered this rule too but decided to try and stick within the existing parry rules mechanic. Shields give +1 save and an additional parry chance, same as for swords. With sword and shield you can parry 2 attacks a turn (only 1 chance at each attack). The shield can also be used to parry non-black powder missile weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: The Big Boring Dual Wield Thread   Thu 27 Sep 2018 - 23:13

@rhydderch
Thanks for that. We will have a couple of games and see how we go.
The idea was to try and limit sling spam and dual wielding, while promoting things that people rarely take (or that they say never to take on mordheim forums and guides), such as armour and great-weapons.
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