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toemasss
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PostSubject: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 1:41

Dark elves seem to be regarded as one of the broken warbands in a campaign setting, right up there with carvnaval of chaos.
I was musing over dark elves in a BTB campaign setting, with 750 gc starting funds would they still be considered game breaking?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 2:11

The reason why Dark Elves are not listed in the introductory warbands section of the supplement (pages 124-125) is that they are pretty far away from where the campaign is set. So that was primarily a fluff decision. If you can live with them feeling a bit out of place, or you can come up with a decent excuse to justify their presence, then just use them. I have always been of the opinion that players should be allowed to use the warbands they like best, irrepsective of background blah blah. Smile

As for balance issues, I have never played with or against Dark Elves, but I, too, have heard a lot of bad things about them. The Lizardmen is too strong as well in my opinion, but on the other hand the Norse are fine (and were even republished in the BTB book). I think Asp mentioned something about them ruined one of his campaigns back then...

What confuses me is why are you suggesting that the potentially overpowered warband starts with 750gc instead of the 500gc that all other warbands start with. That's somewhat "counter-intuitive" to say the least. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 2:27

Oh sorry, perhaps my wording was a bit unclear. We've gotten bored of all starting at 500 GC so everyone is starting at 750.

What unsettles me most about the elves is their stat array (particularly their corsairs). Compaired to chaos marauders (my current warband of choice) their corsairs have higher M, BS, I and LD than the marauder henchmen for the exact same price.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 2:37

Ah, alright! Got it now! Smile

Since all warbands are starting with the additional 250gc (or 375gc then for Marienburgers and Merchant Caravans) I don't think the odds, chances and balances are changed in favour of the other warbands. I mean, why would they? Proportionally increasing the starting money lets the Dark Elf player hire more of his strong models as well.

I think there was another Dark Elf list on Druchi net or something. Or you could consider adjusting the warband slightly (e.g. letting each model start with +2 XP points, which don't grant increases of course - especially for Henchmen this would be a huge drawback).

Anyway, the discussion of how to "fix" the Dark Elf warband should not be necessarily related to the BTB setting, because that one is meant to mix well with the other (un)official warbands from the rulebook and the annual. So... I don't know if there are any simple quick fixes suggested somewhere for the warband? Anyone?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 5:32

Here's the link for the Druchii Revision Project forum - http://www.druchii.net/viewforum.php?f=72, and if you haven't already, I definitely second checking it out. We've adopted the version posted at The Mordheimer's site (http://www.mordheimer.com/warbands/experimental/druchii.htm) as the basis for our Mordheim campaign, but there are still issues with balance - actually more against than for the Dark Elves as it stands in our rules. But then we're still learning how to play them, so this may change as our expertise in this warband does.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 8:14

Hmm. I've never played with the Dark Elves myself, but my local group has. By the sound of it, they can be a bit fierce, but no where NEAR as broken as the Shadow Elves. In general, they seemed completely eager to let them play again.

(Although, first I heard of the CoC being broken... except for the Pestilence spell, which can take out a warband. Ugg.)
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 14:50

Yes, after all, experience and opinions vary a lot concerning balance issues...

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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 18:42

Quote :
I've never played with the Dark Elves myself, but my local group has. By the sound of it, they can be a bit fierce, but no where NEAR as broken as the Shadow Elves.

QFT

though this is the test that I think all warbands should pass: are they markedly better than middenheimers? - if yes, then they are overpowered
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 19:06

Asp: First off, you lost me with 'QTF'.

Second, I bring up Shadow Elves for toemasss's group's sake; if the group allows Shadow Elves, then there should be problem with the Dark Elves. If they don't, then the issue is unresolved.

Thirdly (which is, I confess, veering slightly off topic, and into the realms of the 'what is broken' debates), your measuring stick is a little skewed. Personally, I think 'are they stronger than Middenheimers or Reiklanders' would be a slightly more realistic marker for you to judge warbands by, as measuring a shooting warband by a fighting warband's strength is pitting apples against oranges.

With that in mind, compare Dark Elves to Reiklanders
DE -
5 Heroes, 1 with access to Shooting skills, 2 with no access to missiles
Shooting Henchmen - Cost 35 gc for a WS/BS 4 hench, or 30gc for a BS3 henchmen
Max Missile Weapon (without Weapons Training)
Repeat Crossbow: Range 24", S3, may fire twice with -1 to hit, 35gc

REIK -
5 Heroes, all with access to Shooting skills, two with BS2
Shooting Henchmen - Cost 25 gc for a BS 4 hench
Max Missile Weapon (without Weapons Training)
Crossbow: Range 30", S4, 25gc
OR Rifle, Range 48", cost 200gc (not the cheapest weapon, but you know the rest.)

And lastly, if you DO hold warbands up to the 'Middenheim Test', I personally think that makes the Possessed broken. One of the strongest spell lists, Two Unstoppable heroes for only 90gc (before very powerful mutations), powerful dark souls, and T4 henchmen with W2. This, of course, is a matter of opinion... but if the Possessed warband had been created AFTER the initial release, as an unofficial warband, you'd have groups banning them left and right.


ALTHOUGH, as Cianty mentioned above, this is not the thread for this, and I promise that this is my last post on this thread about 'balance'.

If I were to make a 'quick fix' (without playing the warband), I'd charge 40gc for the Corsairs (makes 'em equal with Dwarf Clansmen). Sea Dragon Cloaks are either banned OR cost 120gc, Rare 11, and cannot be used with body armor (makes them inbetween ithilmar & gromril, as they should be)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 19:45

Thanks for the oppinions guys. I'm thinking of asking the player to use a different warband, dark elves were his second choice to clan pestilins skaven.
The skaven look strong but they look like they could fall beneath their own weight.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 19:55

cianty wrote:
Yes, after all, experience and opinions vary a lot concerning balance issues...
Don't it though? That got quite a chuckle from me...

The issue with Dark Elves is primarily this - they are high characteristic models which are very expensive. Starting with 750gc will help allay this - otherwise you play them even closer to the chest than Dwarf at the start (and they die much more easily than Dwarf at the start).

Like Witch Hunters, the heroes' missile weapons list is expensive, so this compounds the models' own expense. You can't even get clubs/hammers/maces for any Dark Elf.

This is one the most expensive warbands to field per model, and doesn't have the starting ability advantages of the Dwarfs nor the overwhelming and aggravating powers of the Shadow Elves.

Now I can see the Dark Elves developing into a powerhouse (like the Cult of the Possessed do) - they have some very, very nice skills to learn, and of course great racial maximums. That may be an issue down the road. We just haven't played them long enough to know - we're only 5 battles into one campaign with them (where they're finally up to 10 warband members - ouch!), and I believe we'll have to play at least 3 full campaigns to get a good feel for their end-campaign potential.

I'd rather face Dark Elves than Skaven any day...
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 23 Sep 2009 - 22:07

I've never faced a Dark Elf band that was all that horrible. Late in a campaign they're nasty, and very good at what they do, but as Wyldhunt pointed out they're similar to Dwarfs in terms of cost and ability, and they're often considerably more fragile. They rely on their speed to keep them safe, otherwise they would probably be taken apart without too much trouble.

I don't think that either they or Clan Pestilens skaven are terribly unbalanced, and Pestilens can really be a lot of fun. While they are one of few warbands that is fast and tough, the have the same traditional weakness as their eshin cousins in their low leadership. They also have rather expensive alternatives to some miscellaneous equipment, and the Plague Censer, while fun, can be self-damaging.

I'd let the player take his pick between the two.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Thu 24 Sep 2009 - 0:33

Asp: Middenheimers? They are probably the weakest warband ever (discounting Khemri stuff) and judging other warbands by them doesn't make sense to me. Humans, per their profile, are not geared for close combat (unless backed up by skills [which I tried to achieve with the Battle Monks] or by superior armament [which costs too much - armour debate anyone?]) and they are pretty much always inferior to Orcs, Beastmen, Possessed, Dwarfs... All other races have much better "combat profiles".

Wyld: I rather face any warband than skaven (Eshin!). Wink

I think Clan Pestilens is a fine warband having encountered them a couple of times in our last campaign. But anyone who has played with or against "traditional" Skaven will probably find them a tad bit weak compared to their assassin brethren.

Back on the core topic: As you can see, toemasss, opinions differ and you can find just as many people saying "no, Dark Elves are alright". So if your player wants to go with Dark Elves, my suggestion would be to allow them. The player having fun with the warband is the most important thing. And whether a warband can live up to its potential in a campaign is also very luck dependent (unless they are hopelessly unfair) because with a few bad injury rolls here and some lousy income rolls there, any strong warband may get a weak start that they cannot recover from soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Thu 24 Sep 2009 - 9:17

Mostly I believe that it is the player not the warband. I have seen players take the Dark Elves and make them unbeatable. I have also seen players that could not win a game with them. However players that are hard to beat seem to gravitate to Dark Elves, Shadow Elves or Dwarfs with the occasional Reiklander and Clan Eshin thrown in for variety.

I'd face Skaven all day long rather than fight Dwarfs or elves. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Thu 24 Sep 2009 - 16:45

@degenerate elf bashing thread [yawns]

You wouldn't catch a Kislevite or a Norseman whining like this...

It's been said before and not by me; Get more terrain on the tabletop people! Then engage the pointy-eared freaks in close quarters and beat the chips out of them!

Regarding Dark Elves in BTB, the Druchii have no significant presence in these territories. However, the objectives do allow for them to be included in a campaign. In addition, (and this is in hindsight) the alternative objective for the Chaos Dwarfs based on 'The Lure of Fortune' could be adapted for the Dark Elves. They are known slavers.

Regards,

Werekin.

B-)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Fri 25 Sep 2009 - 9:27

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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Fri 25 Sep 2009 - 15:48

I have been a lot of time without posting but I continue lurking for the forum yet ^^

Cathay and Naggaroth are enough nearby each other... with chaos wastes and north pole between both.


Dark elves raid all other lands, Bretonnia, Norsca... why not Cathay too? They take food, money, and slaves, and imo this would be fluffy.

Black Arcs powah! Very Happy

Greetings.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Fri 25 Sep 2009 - 18:00

Well, kind of near each other. That's an awfully big map right there though, and while that perspective makes them look kind of close they're not much further from the Old World than they are from each other.

Of course, I still think that Dark Elves would work fine thematically, after all the Hung are from the northernmost reaches of the continent of Naggarond and they're already in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 0:38

From a canon point of view, Dark Elves were allowed to take Nippon allies way back in the days of the Warhammer Armies book (2nd ed? 3.14 ed?). Theoretically this could mean contact wouldn't be unheard of, in the port city of Cathay (help me out here guys), if not on the mainland side.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 2:24

BTB is Northern Wastes bordering Cathay. Nippon is reeeeally far away from that corner of the world. So that's like saying Finland is close to China because both are bordering Russia.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 2:42

cianty wrote:
BTB is Northern Wastes bordering Cathay. Nippon is reeeeally far away from that corner of the world. So that's like saying Finland is close to China because both are bordering Russia.

But it is (by Canadian standards Very Happy)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 15:03

According to my research, at least one tribe of the Hung and the Druchii are old enemies. The geography of this map evidences the proximity. It's just that the Hung are widespread in the north and nomadic to boot, where as the Dark Elves are seafarers.

Dark Elves could forseeably go sailing down the Sea of Claws and start a 'recruitment drive' in the Northern Wastes, though I can't see any 'Primary Warband played: Dark Elves' posters here so who gives a Skaven's ass!!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Wed 30 Sep 2009 - 15:11

Well, the High Elves still have strongholds all over the world, right (including several in the Eastern sea). Maybe a group of spiteful Dark Elves have taken over an abandonned fort, far on the other side of the world? OR, maybe it's the Dark Elf equivalent of Sir Francis Drake- to avoid a High Elf fleet along the Lustrian coast, the dark elves sailed around the horn. Both make sense, fluff-wise.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Thu 24 Dec 2009 - 14:17

Sorry to dredge up an old topic, but here's a quote from the Dark Elf army book that should put the question of their involvement in Cathay et. al. to rest:

Quote :
The most accomplished explorers of the Underworld Sea come from the tribe of the Shades, mountain-dwellers who forsook the life of the bleak cities in ages past. Yet even they have only uncovered a small fraction of the secrets held by the Underworld Sea. Each decade brings new discoveries, and recently the Shades have been finding increasing evidence that point towards an entire lost civilization hidden deep within the underground caverns. Who or what these underworld dwellers might be, or how they came to be living so far beneath the world, no one, as yet, can say.

For the moment, the Dark Elves care little about lost races and hidden civilizations. Instead they are glad the Underworld Sea gives them passage to the west, giving them access to the Boiling Sea and beyond, the rich lands of Cathay and Nippon. Now there is no corner of the world safe from the ravages of the Witch King!
(7th Ed. Dark Elf Army Book, pg. 40)

Hope that helps decide for you on the DE's inclusion in BtB Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves in BTB.   Thu 24 Dec 2009 - 19:20

So that little tidbit means GW chose Ogre Kingdoms over Morlocks?
My world view just got snapped in half.
Gonna go cry a bit now...develop a drinking problem and try,
try to hold out for a morlock army.
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