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werekin
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PostSubject: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Wed 2 Sep 2009 - 8:07

Hi folks.

The latest addition to the Border Town Burning experience is a separate chapter concerning mutations, Chaos gifts, wyrdstone, alchemy and surgery.

Download the PDF now from here;
http://www.bordertownburning.de.vu

These additional campaign rules can be used frivolously by any warbands who are brave enough or foolish enough to be adventuring in the Northern Wastes in Border Town Burning setting and any Heroes who are handling large quantities or wyrdstone shards in their Mordheim campaigns.

Fully explained is how the warp-touch affects your unsuspecting
warriors! It is also a homage to two of my favourite articles that were
originally published in Town Cryer, both written by Daniel Carlson. We
felt that 'Power in the Stones' and 'Sawbones' are criminally
under-used in campaign play. To remedy this injustice, I have married
the highlights together with some new ideas that began being nurtured
during the development of Border Town Burning.


My research now complete, the file is yours to enjoy using in your future campaigns.

Regards,

Werekin.


Last edited by werekin on Tue 10 Nov 2009 - 14:33; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Wed 2 Sep 2009 - 11:10

Wow, thanks so much for this! Downloading as I type. Good lord, it's amazing to see how much work has gone in (and is still going in) this supplement.

Thanks,

Daniel
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Thu 3 Sep 2009 - 18:47

Wonderful stuff! I had thought to digest the Empire In Flames supplement next after sifting through the basic Mordheim additions from Town Cryers and some web sources, but I can now see that Border Town Burning has to be next on my list, with this quality in place.

One question, though, the answer to which may be "Wyldhunt is blind - here's the page where it's detailed...:" although I find the description of Black Dust and its beneficial effect, I don't see a note as to cost and rarity. Do you have a suggestion for these? Also, Black Dust sounds like something which would be one-use and possibly addictive - do you have a ruling on these?
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 4:53

Hi Wyldhunt.

Thank you for your great compliment. Empire in Flames remains a favourite release of mine and it has been a huge inspiration on the stuff that I have worked on!

Regarding the matter of Black Dust, well done for being the first to spot it...

I hope you realise that this narcotic is dangerous and illegal!

Do you really expect me to just tell you where to buy it, what its availability is like and how much it will cost!!? Wink

Regards,

Werekin.

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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 5:48

werekin wrote:
I hope you realise that this narcotic is dangerous and illegal!

Do you really expect me to just tell you where to buy it, what its availability is like and how much it will cost!!? Wink
Heh - your response at least gives me inspiration on how to include it in our campaign...

Rarity: initially 12 to find a supplier for the warband; after initial supplier is found, rarity 9 to locate again (however, on a rarity roll result of 2, that supplier has been caught and hanged - rarity reverts to 12 until another supplier can be found).

Cost: 25 + D6x10 gc per dose

Side effect: After each time Black Dust is used, the model must successfully test Leadership or end up addicted to the dust. Effects of addiction: if a dose of Black Dust is not available to the hero during this campaign turn, he may not participate in any normal warband activities (scenarios, etc.), and does not gain any experience. He may participate in Trading, however, he may only look for another dose of Black Dust.

Illegal? There's law in Mordheim? I've got to get back to evaluating the Encampments rules at some point...

-------

Now I'm also going to have to see what anyone has already done for an Alchemist Hired Sword - I seem to remember some sort of Wyrdstone Hunter type, but can't find him right at the moment.

-----------

I'm going through Corrupted Characters with my fine-toothed comb, and do have some more questions/comments:

1. I'm assuming the expanded list of Mutations would all be available to new Possessed and Mutant recruits.

2. It appears the Rewards of the Shadowlord can continue to be used as normal, in addition to Gifted Servants.

3. There seems to be a spelling error under Burning Body - the wording should be "set on fire" rather than "set on file." (I know very well from personal experience that it is harder to keep all spelling errors out of any published rules than to remain unmutated in the Northern Wastes!)

4. Do you see a limit to the number of Extra Arms and tails that can be gained? While chance and cost (and modelling when using WYSIWYG) will naturally limit the number, I can still see fairly ridiculous numbers of attacks being gained in some min-max situations.

5. If gaining one body armor mutation while possessing another, does the new one replace or accumulate with the old one? I believe it should replace, not accumulate.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 6:12

wyldhunt wrote:
Rarity: initially 12 to find a supplier for the warband; after initial supplier is found, rarity 9 to locate again (however, on a rarity roll result of 2, that supplier has been caught and hanged - rarity reverts to 12 until another supplier can be found).

Love this concept!

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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 9:10

Quote :
Heh - your response at least gives me inspiration on how to include it in our campaign...

You got it!

Quote :

Rarity: initially 12 to find a supplier for
the warband; after initial supplier is found, rarity 9 to locate again
(however, on a rarity roll result of 2, that supplier has been caught
and hanged - rarity reverts to 12 until another supplier can be found).

It is quite true that locating a dealer will not always guarantee a steady supply of narcotics.

Quote :

Side effect: After each time Black Dust is used, the model must successfully test Leadership or end up addicted to the dust.

Apply the same rules for Crimson Shade here as the narcotic is addictive.

Quote :
Illegal? There's law in Mordheim?

I never said that Black Dust was available in Mordheim. Wink

If it was, then you would have heard of it by now...

Quote :
Now I'm also going to have to see what anyone has already done for an Alchemist Hired Sword

Alchemists don't stray from their laboratories. You gotta pay a special visit to these guys as per the advanced campaign rules options. You should know that there are fifty other good Hired Swords which you can already choose from (not including the Wyrdstone dude you mentioned, who is a bit of a random contribution if you ask me).

Quote :

I'm assuming the expanded list of Mutations would all be available to new Possessed and Mutant recruits.

Of course, as listed. Chaos Cults are rife with mutation!

Quote :
It appears the Rewards of the Shadowlord can continue to be used as normal, in addition to Gifted Servants.

Ah yes, pilgrimmage to the Shadowlord. If you are happy to risk each new skill for no reward Wyldhunt or potentially the unavoidable loss of a Hero, then yes! [winces] Please feel free to lay down the worship! Gamble your characters lives away at the altar of the Belakor as often as you wish. Razz

Quote :

Do you see a limit to the number of Extra Arms and tails that can be gained?

My understanding has always been that appendages are not cumulative.

Quote :
If gaining one body armor mutation while possessing another, does the new one replace or accumulate with the old one?

You might need to give a 'medical' example, as these could be determinable case by case.

Regards,

Stuart.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 10:47

Mutations are cumulative, skills are not.

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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 12:48

Suppose there are only so many extra arms you can have and still get served in your local tavern. Wink

As for tails, I am pretty darn sure that these are not cumulative because some of the wording suggests one supersedes the other if it has a better ability.

Regards,

Stuart.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Fri 4 Sep 2009 - 13:43

Better do your homework, Stuart.

Games Workshop Official Mordheim's FAQ wrote:
Q: Can you take a multiple of the same mutation so that each one gives you a benefit? For example: Tentacle twice for -1 Attack per tentacle.
A: Yes. However, in order to get three Tentacles, you must first buy the Extra Arm mutation as the Tentacle has to have an arm to grow from. You can have multiples of any of the mutations with cumulative effects. But, remember that a Possessed with say, two Blackbloods costs 180 GC!

Source: FAQ @ Mordheimer.com

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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Sat 5 Sep 2009 - 6:02

Thank you for keeping me honest wise one. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Sat 5 Sep 2009 - 9:18

It's nigh-impossible to remember every FAQ, errata, and mod-answered point. Of course, I should have searched the Mordheimer FAQ before asking as well (I did for Chaos Armor information, but neglected to do so for Extra Arm information).

On the other hand, I have to point out that this FAQ on Extra Arms was before there was a way to more frequently purchase such mutations, at least without recruiting a new hero. With the new Corrupted Characters rules, if our group is to retain that FAQ point as written, we'll have to specify that limb mutations must be WYSIWYG, even though we don't otherwse require such. If we don't want to require WYSIWYG for the extra limbs, we'll likely have to place an artificial limitation, probably a max of 6 arms and 2 tails.

werekin wrote:
Quote :
If gaining one body armor mutation while possessing another, does the new one replace or accumulate with the old one?
You might need to give a 'medical' example, as these could be determinable case by case.
Metallic Growths already specifies that its armor benefit cannot be combined with other sources. Scaly Skin and Iron-hard Skin specify that they can be combined with worn armor. I don't see anything written that Chaos Armor cannot be combined with worn armor, so going by the "rules as written" mantra it seems the original intent was to allow that combination as well. The limit we might add in our own group is that Scaly Skin and Iron-hard Skin would be replaced by Chaos Armor if the latter is ever gained. It's not that I'd personally subject any of my own Cult of Possessed heroes to the Rewards of the Shadowlord, but we are retaining that option for the foolhardy...
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Tue 8 Sep 2009 - 12:50

Quote :
It's nigh-impossible to remember every FAQ,
errata, and mod-answered point. Of course, I should have searched the
Mordheimer FAQ before asking as well (I did for Chaos Armor
information, but neglected to do so for Extra Arm information).

True, but I neglected to check. I'm just not MOD material.

We expanded the scope of Chaos Armour in Border Town Burning, as you probably know. The Chaos Dwarfs can actually make this clobber to order you know. It don't come cheap mind.

Quote :
Metallic Growths already specifies that its armor benefit cannot be combined with other sources.

Indeed, the growths function more like a dodge roll or a parry as they can potentially deflect a blow by seeing it glance off.

Quote :
Scaly Skin and Iron-hard Skin specify that they
can be combined with worn armor. I don't see anything written that
Chaos Armor cannot be combined with worn armor, so going by the "rules
as written" mantra it seems the original intent was to allow that
combination as well. The limit we might add in our own group is that
Scaly Skin and Iron-hard Skin would be replaced by Chaos Armor if the
latter is ever gained.

With the exception of Toughened Leathers, armour can always combine with a regular save throw permitted by armoured skin. The precedent for combining armour with armoured skin was published in Cities of Gold;

Scaly Skin: All Lizardmen have a natural save
thanks to their thick scales. Saurus have a 5+
save and Skinks have a 6+. This save cannot
be modified beyond 6 due to Strength
modifiers but any result of ‘no save’ on the
injury chart will negate this 6+ save. Light
Armour adds +1 to the save, as does the
addition of a shield.


That being the case, any house rule being introduced to play the situation you've described above differently, weeeell it would really need to come from the Chaos player himself or herself, else you risk being biased.

Personally I would let it fly and then purchase a nice Hochland long rifle to pop a cap in the sucker!

Regards,

Stuart.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Wed 16 Sep 2009 - 19:38

werekin wrote:
We expanded the scope of Chaos Armour in Border Town Burning, as you probably know. The Chaos Dwarfs can actually make this clobber to order you know. It don't come cheap mind.
I'm just now getting to really immerse in the BtB supplement. So you've made Chaos Armor a worn body armor rather than a "skin" armor (for lack of a better term). In that case, it wouldn't be combined with other worn body armor - with that change, I'm fine with letting it combine with Scaly Skin and/or Iron-hard Skin.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 12:17

You have no idea how involved my conversations with Cianty were with respect to reaching closure on this topic!

Essentially there is longstanding belief that Chaos armour grows itself from the wearer, or similar hormonally related musings. These opinions are purely Imperial conjecture and by referencing any of the roleplaying sources for Chaos you can get to the real truth! In order to make Chaos armour work in a roleplaying environment (which includes Mordheim, especially so during narrative or what I sometimes refer to as 'epic' campaign play) the truth begs to be referenced.

You'll find plenty of (accurately researched) fluff in BTB in support of all this business. If you're curious to know more, then I recommend leafing through the pages of the Tome of Corruption. Warning: you will lose a part of yourself that is goodly and wholesome by doing this!

Quote :
So you've made Chaos Armor a worn body armor rather than a "skin" armor (for lack of a better term).

Wyldhunt, I take back my comment about Alchemist's staying at home. You are right, they ought to also be allowed out of their workshops once in the while and I will look to rectify this situation by 2011.

Regards,

Werekin.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 12:32

werekin wrote:
You have no idea how involved my conversations with Cianty were with respect to reaching closure on this topic!

Oh hell yeah! Stu definately enlighted me on the Chaos Armour issue. study

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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Mon 28 Sep 2009 - 12:48

Cianty is a heretic, where as I am just a heathen.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Thu 1 Oct 2009 - 17:36

Hey, nice rules update Warekin and here are my thoughts after a quick reading...

Constructive criticism:
I was wondering why you decided to remove the Mark of Nurgle from the CoC? The Mark of Onogal from the Marauders warband has the added benefit of re-rolling serious injury, so why not just up the price to 50 or so, and make it Carnival Master only? Marauders couldn't take the mark and CoC would still have limited access to the mark.

Also did you intentionally change the Neiglish Rot back to the original Nurgles Rot? In the rules review the conditioned were changed from a hit roll of 6 to a wound roll of 6.

Also, while i love the Plaque Carrier as a nice alternative to the Rot, it is very debilitating to the carrier. Does that stack with the Bloated Foulness? If so, one could really gimp the poor mutant!

General praise:
I love the updates to the possessed mutations and the gifts for other powers. I have not yet had the oportunity to review the changes in the random mutation list from the power in the stones version, i will digest that information later.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Mon 5 Oct 2009 - 17:39

Hail Pathfinder!

I have prepared a response for your worthy feedback sir...

Quote :
Constructive criticism:
I was wondering why
you decided to remove the Mark of Nurgle from the CoC? The Mark of
Onogal from the Marauders warband has the added benefit of re-rolling
serious injury, so why not just up the price to 50 or so, and make it Carnival Master only? Marauders couldn't take the mark and CoC would still have limited access to the mark.

The Mark provided for Nurgle warbands in Empire in Flames is superseded by the revised Mark published in the Border Town Burning supplement. Effectively what can happen in your narrative campaigns, if you refer to the section of the Advanced Rules entitled 'Beastmen and the Dark Gods', is as follows;

If you prefer then the marks of the Dark Gods can be
applied to the spell-casters of the following heretical
warbands: The Possessed, Carnival of Chaos (Mark of
Onogal only) and Dark Elves (Mark of Shornaal only).


We found this situation satisfactory. The list of 'Blessings' for Nurgle/Onogal warriors is updated for your convenience in my treatise to include two important 'missing' special mutations which are linked to Nurgle/Onogal. These appear instead of the Mark of Nurgle (which is a Mark not a Blessing) and Hideous (which was flavourless duplication). Marks are covered separately in the rules of Border Town Burning. Hideous is already included in the list of basic mutations which is available to all warp-touched warriors.

Note: It is possible for Marks of Chaos to been acquired by other Heroes in a Border Town Burning campaign.

Quote :
Also
did you intentionally change the Neiglish Rot back to the original
Nurgles Rot? In the rules review the conditioned were changed from a
hit roll of 6 to a wound roll of 6.

This is going to be an oversight on my behalf, sorry. I tend to work with my hard copies of the main game rules! Memorizing errata from the Rules Review is something which I have been caught out on a number of times by Cianty. [holds out paw to be slapped] It is unfortunate that we don't have a decent Living Rulebook for this game, at least not like the glorious one available to Blood Bowl fans.

Please treat the rules for Neiglish Rot (which is what Old World physicians call Nurgles Rot, as you can't speak the N word for fear of attracting attention from the Witch Hunters!) as you would where it appears in the latest Rules Review. We shall update the document in its next incarnation.

Quote :
Also, while i love the
Plaque Carrier as a nice alternative to the Rot, it is very
debilitating to the carrier. Does that stack with the Bloated Foulness?
If so, one could really gimp the poor mutant!
How dare thee question the generosity of Onogal, for these are blessings of fortitude indeed! Wink

The Plague Carrier mutation (written by Daniel Carlsson, not me) carries a -1 Movement penalty, as does Bloated Foulness. These reductions both affect the warrior's characteristics. Characteristics being altered by mutations do stack. Cianty reminded me that this information is clear as day in the Mordheim FAQ - see the Mordheimer web site. These warriors of Nurgle do get a bit flabby around the waist & jowls, or so I hear. Smile

Quote :
General praise:
I
love the updates to the possessed mutations and the gifts for other
powers. I have not yet had the oportunity to review the changes in the
random mutation list from the power in the stones version, i will
digest that information later.

Thank you for kind words. I hope you dig the revisions from the original work published in Town Cryer. I've been trawling through all the resources available to me and working through every full moon to better the quality of gaming for dedicated Mordheim campaigners across the globe.

There are currently three further Mordheim projects under development on my desktop for the betterment of man, dwarf, elf, orc, ogre, halfling and rat-kind on my desktop. These articles are similarly aimed at improving the quality of my next campaign, and yours if you choose to download them and hit print!

Regards,

Stuart.

B-)
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Sun 18 Oct 2009 - 7:22

ROCK...AND...ROLL, baby! I'll be checking this OUT!




PS: I'm still quite new at this and trusted the Armybuilder program to be correct...good to know there's a source of all this. I just looove fluff and science-y stuff about Chaos.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 20:58

Ah thanks for the reply to my questions warekin. When i typed the question, I don't believe i fully understood the Marks of Chaos as it applied to the new paradigm you have carefully crafted in the realms of chaos! Actually i still don't, see Q's below...

One thing i really like is how you have taken the random mutations from the wyrdstone powers D66 table (an obvious copy/paste from the realms of chaos books), and incorporated them into the new standardized mutations and gifts lists. Some of the original D66 table mutations were questionable, and created for instance; several different sets of rules for horns, or bites.

I have adopted your rules, and since we have a Dark Elf, Khornite Marauder, and Possessed (myself) player in the latest campaign, they shall see some good use.

I do have further questions though:

1. When you (i'm assuming) say apply the marks to spell casters of other chaotic warbands on page 183 of BtB, do you mean to increase their cost by +10 like the beastman shaman example?

2. What other ways to gain marks are their in the BtB setting? I really can't track them down since i'm pretty tired at the moment!

3. In the corrupted article, one part confused the hell outta me until just now when i was typing this question!

You mention how Witch Hunter,and Sisters will kill mutants that develop. But the part about everyone else and the note about reverence from Skaven, Dark Elves, and Black Dwarfs mingled in my mind and i assumed the rest of the paragraph applied to those three warbands only. I was at a loss as to what you intended for all the other warbands for the longest time until just now!

I see now how the intent is for Skaven, Dark Elves, and Black Dwarfs to keep the mutants and everyone else to take the leadership test, but only after reading it 4 times did that finally click.

The distinction is a vague and you might want to separate the paragraph in your future version, i might not be the only one who mis-interpreted it upon first, or forth glance!
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Sat 7 Nov 2009 - 23:10

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
The distinction is a vague and you might want to separate the paragraph in your future version, i might not be the only one who mis-interpreted it upon first, or forth glance!

I'd like to second this. When I read Corrupted Characters several weeks ago I also had to read that section a few times to come to the same final conclusion as Pathfinder Dubstyles. I did eventually understand it but perhaps some slight rewording there might help.
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 5:24

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
1. When you (i'm assuming) say apply the marks to spell casters of other chaotic warbands on page 183 of BtB, do you mean to increase their cost by +10 like the beastman shaman example?

Yes, that's what we meant.

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
2. What other ways to gain marks are their in the BtB setting? I really can't track them down since i'm pretty tired at the moment!

None. The Marks are just a special rule of the Marauders of Chaos warband. There are no exploration or random effects to improve chances or even enable receiving a Mark. The only exception is when your leader becomes a Daemon Prince (see Objectives page 40). You then get a Mark for free, but that's a very special situation for the end of the campaign.

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
The distinction is a vague and you might want to separate the paragraph in your future version, i might not be the only one who mis-interpreted it upon first, or forth glance!

Funny. Same here. I should have better pointed it out to Stu during proof-reading so this is probably my fault as it would have been my job to ensure that others understand the rules. pale

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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Sun 8 Nov 2009 - 14:27

Thanks for the reply, i'm glad i could help improve such inspiring work.

In my campaigns i will allow non-marauder chaos warband leaders and/or seers to take marks instead of a skill or mutation if they roll 2 or 12 on an advance, rolling up a new spell if it is Tchar. In the case of a leader who is also a seer, the seer mark will take precedence.

Certain rare scenarios will also enforce the abomination effects.

Here is the phrase in question whose meaning is quite elusive. I have added the underlined part for clarity:
Quote :
Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs and Dark Elves have a reverence
for all things twisted and corrupted by Chaos; therefor, mutated heroes are safe from recourse in these warbands. Other races are not so kindly to mutants: as a consequence of mutation
...
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PostSubject: Re: Advanced rules for Mutations, Gifts, Alchemy & Surgery   Tue 10 Nov 2009 - 12:51

Thanks for raising this Pathfinder. As always, your astute observations are helping us to improve campaign play for all evil sons of bitches (aka followers of Chaos). Wink

Yes indeed, the word 'however' is conspicuous by its absence in that paragraph. I also neglected to mention how other dedicated followers of Chaos would treat a warrior who becomes a mutant.

Please treat the paragraph of text you highlighted, from the section titled 'Abominations', as follows;

"Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs, Dark Elves, Beastmen, Cults of Chaos, Marauders of Chaos and Norse warbands have a reverence for all things twisted and corrupted by Chaos. However, as a consequence of mutation, any other Hero can usually expect to be cast out from his group by his suspicious peers when word gets around."

With respect to Marks of Chaos, I am afraid we are in a situation where the desire to worship the Ruinous Powers has brought us all to a crux. The special rules known as Eye of the Gods, were previously designed with the Marauders of Chaos warband in mind. These rules from BTB exclusively open a channel between a warband and one the Prime Four!!

There is a section in the Advanced Rules section which suggests that Beastmen warbands can adapt these special rules to suit their own sinister purpose in BTB campaigns.

At this stage, I feel we need to deduce how best to be promoting further use of these special rules so that all warbands which fall under the 'followers Chaos' umbrella, can flourish. In order to adapt Eyes of the Gods so that they function in tandem with the game options for followers of Chaos that were presented in Corrupted Characters, we will require the heretical leadership of that scrupulous scribe Christian Templin. Wink

Thanks again for your feedback Pathfinder.

Regards,

Werekin.
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