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REKONE
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PostSubject: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sat 29 Aug 2009 - 18:38

Imagine this:

2 bad guys are fighting in a building, near to a fall... a hard fall...
So one of this get wounded, you roll the Initiative test... and FAIL. Then he falls and so on... but... does this result counts as a +1XP at the end of the battle if this poor victim dies?
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sat 29 Aug 2009 - 18:47

No, since it was the fall that killed him not his opponent.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sat 29 Aug 2009 - 18:59

well... that's ok, but he falled because of combat and can be interpreted as the other guy kicked him to death, dont you think? eeexcellent!
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sat 29 Aug 2009 - 19:06

Well this happens in our games all the time. And some one asks if they can't get the experience about once a campaign or so. Rules wise I don't see it. In the stories we tell, you bet--Ali threw that guy into the railing, it broke and the enemy broke his neck.

Ali gets no experience though.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sat 29 Aug 2009 - 19:14

We had a similar situation where a hero fell and went out of action from the fall, but the fall was due to failed Initiative test brought on by an opponent hero's missile attack.

We house-ruled that the opponent hero got the XP.

I don't think that official rules wording is normally stretched to this conclusion, but this conclusion made too much sense to us to do otherwise.

Gray areas which can be used to support this conclusion: spells which cause effects that then take targets out of action. In these cases, the spellcaster is routinely award the XP, although, like in Spell of Doom, the caster didn't directly put the enemy out of action. Take a close look at Spell of Doom - the Necromancer merely calls on the dead to emerge from the earth to rend the "unfortunate warrior" - however, the dead summoned by the spell, not the Necromancer, are the ones who can actually take the "unfortunate warrior" out of action. Yet who would withhold the XP from the Necromancer who cast this spell?

To us, if a secondary effect directly caused by a hero takes an enemy out of action, then the causing hero gets the XP. EDIT: we do have limits to this, however, Nurgle's Rot doesn't cut it if the enemy dies much later, and a model on fire which dies even during the next turn wouldn't grant XP to his torcher - to us, the line is that the enemy must be taken out of action within the act performed by the hero and its immediate results - in other words, before another model gets to act.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sat 29 Aug 2009 - 19:38

wyldhunt--As long as you call it a house rule, I'm fine. I would laugh out loud at the Necromancer argument. That one's a hoot! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sat 29 Aug 2009 - 19:45

Von Kurst - I would laugh back at your laughing... It's exactly the same thing - warrior causes effect (in one, a fall, in another, dead coming from the earth); target must test (in one, an Initative test, in another, a Strength test); if the target fails he can go out of action. How could you reasonably withhold XP from the causer in one situation but not the other?
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sat 29 Aug 2009 - 20:50

Then we will laugh together, always a good thing.

So I have to prove in some way acceptable that causing someone to fall is different than a spells effect because of the spell description?

Your argument compares circumstances that are at best similar, declares them to be equal and draws a conclusion. The logic is flawed.

My example: The warrior hits, wounds and rolls for injury. The victim is OOA or its not. Direct cause and effect. The Necromancer casts the spell, the victim takes a test, if failed it is OOA or its not. Direct cause and effect.

Your example: The warrior hits, wounds and rolls for injury. The victim of the warrior's attack is not OOA but it may now fall. The victim tests, fails and falls. There is a roll for number of hits and another roll for wounds and then another injury roll is made. Now its OOA. After 2 separate injury rolls using 2 separate rules. Indirect cause and effect. (In my group we make the player whose warrior might fall make all the rolls.) The Necromancer casts the spell, the victim takes a test, if failed it is OOA or its not. Direct cause and effect.

In my view the warrior was killed by his clumsiness or perhaps a defective Rabbit's Foot. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 1:45

Very, very interesting Smile Thank you for your participation guys! My group will have to talk abou this then Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 3:07

Quote :
So I have to prove in some way acceptable that causing someone to fall is different than a spells effect because of the spell description?

Your argument compares circumstances that are at best similar, declares them to be equal and draws a conclusion. The logic is flawed.

Let me throw in the discussion a very particular spell then: what about a model that is knocked off a building by the "Oi Gerroff" spell and dies from the fall?

For those unfimiliar with the spell (which is my fav O&G spell btw), here is the description:

Quote :
Oi! Gerroff!: A huge, green ectoplasmic hand pushes an enemy away. Range 8". Moves any enemy model within range D6" directly away from the Shaman. If the target collides with another model or a building, both suffer 1 S3 hit. Note: Very handy for dropping people from high buildings with. May not be cast on models in hand-to-hand combat. Difficulty: 7
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 5:13

We ruled on the old SG forum that one would gain experience in this case.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 5:28

Helmut Borheim has been caught and brought before Zachariah Gestalt, acting Magistrate of Sigmarhaven.

Helmut grovels, "Most honorable sir, due to the growing dusk, and the way Herr Moster was standing on that rooftop, I thought assuredly he was a rat-man. I was acting in the best interest of our settlement's defense when I shot. I throw myself on the mercy of Sigmar for that mistake, and will do whatever penance you judge. However, I must profess my innocence of his death. True enough, my shot did cause his fall, however, I heard his scream as he plummeted to the ground - he was alive until the fall killed him!"

After quick consideration, Zachariah answered, "Sophistry! You shot him, your arrow caused his fall, therefore your arrow caused his death! As for the state of your mind, I can discern no truth in your statements. Therefore you will be executed. However, your sophistry can be used to your benefit. When I tie you to the stake and light the fires under your feet, you can rationalize that it is not I who am killing you, but instead the purifying fires of righteousness!"

-----------

I hope no-one tries the "but the fall killed him, not me!" argument in any real court either...
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 7:42

Great story, same concept in real life a robber broke into an elderly person's home to rob them. The elderly lady had a heart attack and the robber was charged with murder. Or if you were fighting with someone and somehow the person fell backwards and a car hit them. You would be charged in some varying degree (depending on where you leave) with Murder or Manslaughter.

Now if you could get OJ's lawyers you might have a chance to win. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 8:34

@Mithras--Excellent example! "Oi Gerroff" is one of the best orcy spells and my shaman never rolls it. It also is very germane to this discussion.

Real world--definitely all good examples. Except we aren't talking about being punished here, we are talking about being rewarded. In our little game the goal is to cause mayhem. Change the above story to the killer's employer trying to weasel out of paying a bounty on the victim and the judge's tone is going to change.

Last Thursday the High Elf Sea Patrol has 5 shooty heroes, all have quick shot and trick shot, most are BS 6. ALL of their targets are on ships. ALL of their targets must test or fall overboard. Many of them did. The falls didn't take them OOA but falling in the sea did. That would increase their experience total for the night by a third or more. Conversely, not one elf fell overboard. Ya see what I'm sayin'?

I'm not arguing against a house rule, if that fits for your campaign, but I've got one too many elfs running around. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 8:37

I'll pop up one more time.
If someone falls and is taken OOA due to falling afterwards, it is not the shot that kills him.
It is his failed initiative test and the efect of rolling badly on the results of his fall.
If you want to give someone experience points you need to give it to the one who failed the initiative test since that is what caused the fall, not any missle or spell.

With the "Oi Gerroff" spell, if it pushes a model off an edge and the fall kills him then yes, the wizard gets the experience point for that.
Why there?
Because the model never had a chance to take an initiative test to keep from falling.

In the end, every gaming group can decide how they want to handle this concpet.
Me, I just want to play Mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 11:47

Von Kurst wrote:
Change the above story to the killer's employer trying to weasel out of paying a bounty on the victim and the judge's tone is going to change.
An honest judge's tone won't, and that is borne out in history as well. Unfortunately, the vague wording of the official rule can be successfully argued either way, which is why we settled on a house rule interpretation to make it clear. When something like a rose is close enough to being a rose (like the miniature and thornless varieties), I call it a rose and move on.

Von Kurst wrote:
Last Thursday the High Elf Sea Patrol has 5 shooty heroes, all have quick shot and trick shot, most are BS 6. ALL of their targets are on ships. ALL of their targets must test or fall overboard. Many of them did. The falls didn't take them OOA but falling in the sea did. That would increase their experience total for the night by a third or more. Conversely, not one elf fell overboard. Ya see what I'm sayin'?
It sounds like Sartosa could benefit from another change we also made in the falling rules: "If there is enough of a barrier to provide cover on all precipice sides, the model does not fall." Models shouldn't really be falling off ship decks if there are railings/bulwarks around designed to prevent precisely that. Now, if these targets were in the rigging... In regards to going out of action from falling into the sea, it seems this happens due to the models not being able to get back on board/land rather than some always-immediate concussion from hitting the water. This would say to me that the rule for going out of action from falling into the sea should explicitly state an exception to the granting of XP for the kill - otherwise, Orc Shamans with Oi! Geroff! will just love to play in Sartosa...
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 13:58

VonKurst and Playtable keep in mind your setting is a bit more unique than the normal mordheim setting as Saratosa is not as it involves a few ship battles as you have noted.

Again, officially the Answer Mods last year said you gain experience and I was one of them. So if you want to argue the point to house rule go ahead.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 14:37

Technically if I'm the one who chose to move my warrior next to an edge... maybe I should get the experience point?
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 15:14

Da Bank
Quote :
VonKurst and Playtable keep in mind your setting is a bit more unique than the normal mordheim setting as Saratosa is not as it involves a few ship battles as you have noted.
My recomendations were for ALL settings of Mordheim.

hero
Quote :
Technically if I'm the one who chose to move my warrior next to an edge... maybe I should get the experience point?
Sounds logical to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 16:05

@Playtable...didn't see where you specified all settings. You seem to note the model that failed the initiative test and died would give himself the experience point. Which is not the point. Again, you can House Rule that if you like.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 17:24

Da Bank
I didn't specify any specific setting on my comment.
I don't see where any setting that anyone has ever done would effect the question in this thread.

And the falling guy getting exp. for killing himself was strictly tounge and cheek sarcasm.
Just a joke. Dry humor. Laughing Laughing
I did't mean for anyone to take me seriously on that part.

BUT, I bow to the rule of the Answer Mod. GW sanctioned, right?
Do you have a link for the Q & A about this subject that you mention or where this offical rule clarification is stated?
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 17:47

Sartosa--any preceived issues with the setting caused by our comments about ship battles must understand that WE added the ship battles to the setting. And we are quite happy with the result. I just see no reason to award more experience to the most powerful warband.

As for adding a rule about not falling overboard, falling overboard is always one of the highlights of the evening (even when the crew looks like it is imitating lemmings.) Since we have no rigging to fall out of, (we are the clumsiest gamers I've met so most our lines have long since been removed or ripped off the ships) pitching over the rail with or without the cry of "arrgh, they got me!" will have to suffice. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Sun 30 Aug 2009 - 18:21

I don't agree with you. I'd say that you would get the experience, since fall was an consequence of an action you made ľ a warrior would learn that attacking someone near the each is beneficial, and increases chances to kill him. If one would not get experience from that, one should hardly for example get exp' from a ricochet, since this is also a consequence of less expected events.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Mon 31 Aug 2009 - 15:49

@Playtable...nope it is gone with the old SG forum. Don't know if you remember but the website was supposed to come back up quickly with no loss of data but they lost all the data so there it is. I was one of the couple(Brahm and TKITCH) that ruled on it. You take use it or not your choice. as you noted you can always House Rule it.

GW Sanctioned? What do you mean? Do I need a signed letter from Andy Hall or Jervis? LOL. I have been the Answer MOD for Mordheim for quite a few and still am on the SG forums. To date I have been given the opportunity to rule on Mordheim. Don't know what more to tell you than that.
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PostSubject: Re: Falling from a bulding in combat   Tue 1 Sep 2009 - 7:53

We where playing the scenraio "monster hunt" with a Young Hydra as the monster!
Eventually only one warband was left to fight the hydra, they entered its house and it attacked one of the heroes upstairs so the fight was taken place on the second floor!
It had only 2 wounds left and one of the heroes armed with a spear gets a critical hit and its "kebab" so he pushes it of the edge!
So it takes 1 wound from the crit, but the falls kills it!
So would he get the +2 exp for being the one taken out of action, or is bonus gone?
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