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 Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions

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TheFool
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PostSubject: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 22:43

I was just wondering,

A ghouls setup in the rules is;

Quote :
Weapons/Armour: Ghouls never carry any
equipment, apart from a few bones which they use
as primitive weapons.

If a Ghoul rolls "Lads got Talent" and chooses the combat skill "Weapons training"...

Quote :
A warrior with this skill is adept
at using many different weapons. He may use any
hand-to-hand combat weapon he comes across, not
just those in his equipment options.

Does this mean the Ghoul can now use HtH weapons?
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ts061282
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PostSubject: Re: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 22:51

"Ghouls never carry any equipment, apart from a few bones which they use as primitive weapons."

...so, no; but, most house rule that you can. I would contend that LGT for a ghoul is a monolithic moment where he learns to use tools, and so can buy items from the Undead Equipment list. But as you can see, I play undead.
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PostSubject: Re: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 23:21

I do not think that is how 'Weapons Training' was originally intended.


Although, if you look at the entry for Flagellents in the Witch Hunter section, it quite explicitly states:

Flagellants never use missile weapons, even if they gain an Advance roll which would otherwise allow them to do so.


There is NO such statement under the Ghoul entry. Therefore, I would say it is legal.
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PostSubject: Re: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 0:06

I dunno the "ghouls can never carry any equipment" is very, very explicit.
They can use no equipment of any kind. So the statement is pretty much there. It doesn't speak to the skill, but the "they carry no equipment." pretty much overrides it. Don't you think? Flagellants can have equipment purchased for them. They say it twice to clarify. The rule for ghouls is pretty darn clear.

Any other interpretation is wishful thinking. I would strongly protest any undead player that made the assertion they could. Unless of course it was explicitly house ruled in the context of a campaign. I still wouldn't like it. I'd argue for adjusting the cost of ghouls to reflect the potential for equipment.

In some one off or something? Nope. Not unless I can equip my warhounds with lances. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 0:24

Nastyogre wrote:
I dunno the "ghouls can never carry any equipment" is very, very explicit.
They can use no equipment of any kind. So the statement is pretty much there. It doesn't speak to the skill, but the "they carry no equipment." pretty much overrides it. Don't you think? Flagellants can have equipment purchased for them. They say it twice to clarify. The rule for ghouls is pretty darn clear.

Any other interpretation is wishful thinking. I would strongly protest any undead player that made the assertion they could. Unless of course it was explicitly house ruled in the context of a campaign. I still wouldn't like it. I'd argue for adjusting the cost of ghouls to reflect the potential for equipment.

In some one off or something? Nope. Not unless I can equip my warhounds with lances. Very Happy


The problem is that 'Weapons Training' allows for the use of items you normally cant use.


Ghouls normally cant use any weapons. If it didnt want them to be able to use weapons once they obtain certain skills - it would state it like it does for Flagellents.

The difference between your hound and a Ghoul, is that Ghouls gain experience, and I would argue that if they can gain experience, then they can learn how to use a weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 0:49

This was covered in an FAQ that appears in the Mordheim Annual 2002, p107.

Basically it said ghouls could not have equipment but it could be house ruled otherwise if people made a cool model.
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PostSubject: Re: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 0:59

Also in a pdf that GW put out back in the earlies.

Quote :
Under the Henchmen listing for Ghouls, it says that they can never carry equipment. However, if your Ghoul gets the ‘That Lad’s Got Talent’ advancement and you make him a Ghoul Hero, he can get Combat Skills for one of his choices. If he gets the chance to learn a new skill, can you give him Weapons Training to allow him to use weapons or is the listing about Ghoul Henchmen never using weapons final?
The letter of the rule is that Ghouls can have NO equipment. However, so many people enjoy equipping their Ghouls that I (Tuomas) rarely point this out. I hate seeing all of those Ghoul conversions going to waste!
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PostSubject: Re: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 10:14

Well sure you can give him the ability to use weapons he normally can't. You just can't give him any of those weapons. You want to waste the skill on the ghoul. Sure. Be my guest.
Read the wording
A warrior with this skill is adept
at using many different weapons. He may use any
hand-to-hand combat weapon he comes across, not
just those in his equipment options.

It says he can USE them. But he can't CARRY them. So he gains the ability to use stuff he can't carry.

That statement about ghoul conversions really has to do with WYSIWIG status of ghouls, not whether or not they can actually USE said weapons.
Remember, Mordheim is intended to be STRICTLY WYSIWIG. (though many of us don't play that way) Thus a ghoul model (or zombie) shown with a weapon is disqualified from use. It is not a statement on whether or not they can use them. Its whether or not I should force an opponent to remove a non-WYSYWIG figure. In fact, he reasserts the concept that under no circumstances should ghouls use any equipment. Its very straightforward.
The letter of the rule is that Ghouls can have NO equipment.


Of course my warhounds can't gain experience. I was making the point that warhounds can't use equipment. Ghouls are the same. Ghouls gain exp, but NEVER use equipment. I realize you want your undead to be uber, frankly ghouls are one of only two henchmen groups that can have 2 wounds. They cause fear. They are T4. They are pretty darn good. IF you allow this for ghouls then you get to have the same experience for possessed. Do you really want possessed models bumping around with weapons?

Again, your gaming group can house rule anything it wants. The spirit, intent and wording of the rules (as stated by Tuomas himself) is that Ghouls never use equipment.



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PostSubject: Re: Ghouls - Lads Got Talent - Questions   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 14:40

The rules were clear with the set up of the Ghoul there is NO opportunity for them to get weapons.

As noted by others you can house rule and there is nothing wrong with house rules as my group uses are own.
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