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 Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group

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ts061282
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PostSubject: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 11:56

So my dreg is being charged by two swordsmen exactly 8" away. At hand is a sturdy zombie, eager to dine. I declare the intercept and we move the first charger, now the second charger can no longer see my dreg (blocked by the swordsman and zombie) and the most direct path is greater than his charge distance. What happens here exactly? When do you declare intercept? After all charges? Does a situation like this always "strand" a charger?

EDIT: This is the logical order I have concluded must be used to avoid as many corner cases as possible.

1. All charges are declared. Indicate a charging warrior and his target.
2. Move chargers; for each charge:
a. Take any necessary fear check; if failed, move on to the next charger.
b. Measure charge distance; if short, move the failed charger half his charge distance toward his target and move on to the next charger.
c. Opposing player may declare an intercept against the charging warrior.
i. Move the intercepting warrior along a path perpendicular to (straight towards) the chargers path and center him there or as close to this point as surrounding models allow.
d. Move the charging warrior into base contact with the charged model or the intercepting model if there is one. Move on to the next charger.


Last edited by ts061282 on Tue 7 Jul 2009 - 17:37; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 10:11

I always think the charge phase as something that flows simultaneously – so I would allow him to move in as normal. Hard to fully understand the problem without a picture...
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 10:37

No matter which is intercepted first, the other will not have distance to charge the Dreg.


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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 10:59

I would say the zomnbie reaches the first in line of the attackers. The other has a free run to the dreg
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 11:56

lord siwoc wrote:
I would say the zomnbie reaches the first in line of the attackers. The other has a free run to the dreg

I'd agree. Though, if you are strict, you could also say it was kind of faulty planning on the attacking player's part that he moved the other model first so the second warrior gets barred from charging. I am not so sure, but perhaps the rules might even say that you fail a charge if you plan badly and move the models in a way that other chargers can't reach the target anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 12:22

The rule for intercepting charges isn't clear in this case. One can assume that you must declare an intercept as soon as the charge is declared, this means I would intercept one of the chargers and the opponent simply moves his uninterrupted charger first, bypassing the issue. But if I assume I can declare intercept when he moves the first charger, I can block his other charger in the process.

But it gets more complicated. Why can't the zombie intercept both chargers? The rules prohibit multiple interceptors but not multiple interceptees. Or, why doen't the opponent charge the zombie with one swordsman and the dreg with the other? If so, does he have to declare charging the zombie first, otherwise I can still intercept the charge on the dreg? And if he get's this much right, what if he fails his fear test for the swordsman charging the zombie, can the zombie still intercept the other charger?

EDIT: On further inspection, it seems even the rule for moving chargers is unclear. I have always played that all charges must be declared, then charges are measured and moved. The rulebook does not state even this, giving no relation between multiple declarations, measurements and movements, let alone intercepts.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 13:46

If you'd say that the zombie intercepted the charger to the right, thus disabling the other one to charge the dreg, I'd let the left charger charge the intercepting zombie.

Other than that, I think you can move your models freely one at a time, no matter the order, and if you are careless enough to move the right charger first and the zombie decides to intercept, tough luck. If he doesn't, the zombie could then intercept the left charger.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 16:25

lord siwoc wrote:
I would say the zomnbie reaches the first in line of the attackers. The other has a free run to the dreg

This implies that all charges and intercepts are moved simultaneously.

...and a great rules headache ensued...

Though this does bring up the interesting point that even if clear orders for declaring, moving and intercepting are established, there's always going to be some wiggle where exactly the interceptor meets the charger. Does the interceptor travel along a line perpendicular to the charge path? Is he then centered on this charge line and the charger brought into base contact?

To a picture! Can the charger step in or back to meet the charger (A and C) or only over to the charge path (B)? Once on the path, must the warrior be centered (2) or can he be offset (1 and 3)?

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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 16:56

He intercepts perpendicular. At least that's what's shown in the picture in the rules, as far as I remember.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 17:07

Eliazar wrote:
He intercepts perpendicular. At least that's what's shown in the picture in the rules, as far as I remember.

This picture illustrates an "interception area" a total 4" wide and then a warrior both within this distance and then outside. The picture does not illustrate a movement path for the interceptor and the movement of the interceptor is not even described in the rules text except for the specific case of fear causing interceptors and this is ambiguous, "move the models into contact".



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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 17:09

Then I'd go for the shortest route, which is perpendicular.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 17:12

The point is the best we can do is speculate and come to a friendly agreement. Or a somewhat less than friendly dice off. I hate dicing off. Let's just dice off for the whole shebang and go watch Baywatch. jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Mon 6 Jul 2009 - 13:56

After much research on this one:

1) you can only intercept one model not two. There is no precendence for this ever being considered in any of the trail of emails I have read. The normal way to move chargers is one at a time, just like shooting(your don't fire all the possible missile shots at once).

2) It seems "most direct path" is that. If the interceptor is blocking the path and the charger must be able to reach within their charge range. In other words, if he can't make it because there are people in the way then he can't make it.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Mon 6 Jul 2009 - 14:32

First off, thanks Da Bank for looking into this quagmire.

Da Bank wrote:
The normal way to move chargers is one at a time, just like shooting (your don't fire all the possible missile shots at once).

So this means that all charges are declared, and then the charging player begins moving models and then intercepts are declared? Or, declare all charges, declare all intercepts and then begin moving models? I obviously want to intercept the "first" charger and my opponent wants me to intercept the "second charger". Who wins? Also, can I intercept a charger with a warrior being charged by someone else? When are fear checks made in regards to multiple charges, when the charge is declared or after all charges are declared?

FYI, I'm really not trying to be difficult. I had looked into making a flash based, 2d, online multiplayer version of Mordheim a few years ago and ran into thinking about these types of situations. Maybe easy enough for two humans to hash out, but computers are dumb.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Mon 6 Jul 2009 - 15:02

As you noted this one in question has been asked but it was back in 2002 LOL and it was never answered completely.

The option to intercept is your choice and NOT your opponents. Have them reread the rules on page 10 of the Living Rule Book.


Q: Can I intercept a charger with a warrior being charged by someone else?
A: Yes, as long as all normal rules are followed. This part is strategy.

Q: When are fear test made by those being charged?
A: When the fear causing model is base to base contact as then you know they will be fighting.

They are good questions, no worries just understand I have been involved with Mordheim for almost 10 years and I have monitored all the questions that I can over the years to see how others have viewed them also.

There is one theme with Mordheim that is pretty contstant: Unless it says you can, you can not. There are a few excpetions but few.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Tue 7 Jul 2009 - 10:03

Is this still relevant?

From The Mordheimer's Information Centre, The Ultimate
Mordheim Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) & Errata

2.3 Intercepting charge

Q: If a warrior declares a charge and an opposing model can intercept him, does the model that can intercept actually move or does the fact that my charge could be intercepted simply prevent me from charging?

A: In bare essence it means that you cannot charge THAT model (i.e. check before moving the charger whether he can charge or not). However, many players move the intercepting model and let the charge be targeted against that model. [Games Workshop Official Mordheim's FAQ]


Q: To give this question a definitive answer once and for all: If a model wants to charge and there is another model who can Intercept, does the charge still take place (only with the intercepting model) ? Or, does the Charge not happen because a model could intercept?

A: See above. [Tuomas, Mordheim Yahoo! eGroups' FAQ]


Q: Speaking of intercepting a Charge, can you intercept a Fear causing model without taking a Fear Test?

A: No, but the fear test is for being charged. [Tuomas, Mordheim Yahoo! eGroups' FAQ]
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Tue 7 Jul 2009 - 10:39

Yes, the are still relevant but they don't exactly mention the question you have. It does but you have to read between the lines.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Tue 7 Jul 2009 - 17:18

This is the logical order I have concluded must be used to avoid as many corner cases as possible.

1. All charges are declared. Indicate a charging warrior and his target.
2. Move chargers; for each charge:
a. Take any necessary fear check; if failed, move on to the next charger.
b. Measure charge distance; if short, move the failed charger half his charge distance toward his target and move on to the next charger.
c. Opposing player may declare an intercept against the charging warrior.
i. Move the intercepting warrior along a path perpendicular to (straight towards) the chargers path and center him there or as close to this point as surrounding models allow.
d. Move the charging warrior into base contact with the charged model or the intercepting model if there is one. Move on to the next charger.

Following these rules my initial case with the dreg, zombie and two swordsmen would work out as follows. If both swordsmen try to charge the dreg, the zombie will intercept one and the other will fail the charge. If one swordsman charges my zombie and the other charges the dreg, but the player moves the dreg charging swordsman first, I will still intercept with the zombie and the other swordsman will possibly engage the zombie as well (depending on fear check, real distance). And if he moves the zombie charger first, he may fail the fear check, leaving the zombie able to intercept, or may pass it, leaving the other swordsman free to charge the dreg past the engaged zombie. Laughing

What do we think?
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Tue 7 Jul 2009 - 17:37

I'm so glad you decided to post on Tom's as well as the Yahoo group. I find the Yahoo group to be very annoying and not particularly useful since it is hard to follow discussions or just check in on them. I guess the groups are an acquired taste.

(Yuck)

To the topic--I think you have arrived at a useful conclusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Wed 8 Jul 2009 - 11:38

i may be wrong but i think the point of the interception rule was to stop players from running past the opposing warband and instead make them charge the nearest model. i have been involved in some very silly arguements just because someone wants to run past a vampire to attack a dreg and then disputing the interception because they want to measure the 2 inch distance from the center of the models bases adn not the edges and so on.
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PostSubject: Re: Intercept Corner Cases - Cross Post from Yahoo Group   Today at 13:28

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