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 Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?

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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 11:25

I'm ferreting out as many "edge cases" as I can now in preparation for a new campaign. As I was going through the First Strike and Strike Last rules, I found some disparity in the wording. Sometimes it appears that First Strike/Strike Last applies to all of the model's attacks; sometimes it appears that a Strike rule only applies to particular weapons' attacks.

Take a look at the exact wording of the double-handed weapon's Strike Last rule: "...the model using them always strikes last, even when charging."

So what happens when my Mutant with a double-handed weapon and a scorpion tail charges?

A strict interpretation of the double-handed weapon rule would mean that even my Mutant's scorpion tail strikes last, rather than first. That doesn't seem to make sense (but it may - the double-handed weapon slows down the entire model, not just the two arms wielding it). However, the opposite interpretation means I have to keep track of which specific attacks are first, normal, and last, which can be interesting in a multiplayer melee...

I'm leaning toward First Strike and Strike Last really meaning all of the model's attacks. How do you play it?

(If this has already been officially answered, please point me to the answer - I haven't found it in the FAQs/rules reviews/errata I've read.)
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 12:15

It applies only to the attack. Except for the mutant exception this is never relevant though (I think)... Previously you could strike first with a speak, then the enemy attacks, and then you attack with your second hand-weapon. Now all instances of first strike always appear on the model as a whole because spears can no longer be combined with other weapons and other situations where you strike first (attacking, lightning reflexes) apply to the entire model anyways.

Mutations such as additional arms or fighting tails of Skaven can still result in the model attacking in two "phases".

Again, in short: the rules apply to attacks made with the weapon. The same way as a Ithilmar weapon gives only +1 Initiative to the attacks made with it, so if you wear a normal weapon as well in the second hand, it can happen that you too fight at different times.

Thinking about it... A model wielding a double handed weapon in its two hands, an Ithilmar sword with Ini +1 in an extra arm (mutation) and with a Scorpion tail (mutation) can possibly strike at three different times during combat (imagine a multiple combat with two or more enemies and varying Ini). Weird...

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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 15:02

Yes, wierd, but if that's the word, we can hang with it.

I did finally find a single reference buried in The Mordheimer's ultimate FAQ to the same conclusion - it referenced the GW Official Mordheim FAQ. That's one doc I don't have.

Thanks!
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 15:41

The latter part of the Rules Review (available from the GW website) includes an FAQ. I would think that that's the more current official FAQ available (a summary of the various FAQs from Town Cryer magazine and other).

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Pathfinder Dubstyles
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 20:22

If that model were a Lizardman Saurus he would also have a bite attack to weigh into all those different attacks... A Saurus could feasibly get mutations with the wyrdstone powers. Although the rules state Human warbands must kick out the hideously mutated, it would be up to players to determine what other "good" warbands this applies too.

Remember that a single model may not benefit from knocking down or stunning a warrior with a higher initiative attack and then finishing him off with a lower initiative one though (HRLRB p. 21 Attacking Stunned and Knocked Down Warriors).

Identity pointed that out to me a while ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 22:39

As Dubstyles pointes out, the different attack phases can't be used to auto-OOA stuff, but it still gives you a huge advantage when fighting more than one enemy.
You can use your scorpion tail to hit one opponent, and if the attack goes through, you can use the 2hander for another instead of deciding all attacks before rolling all Smile
(lizardmen saurus on cold one have 3 different attack phases, oh yeah!!!)
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 21:25

Pathfinder Dubstyles wrote:
Remember that a single model may not benefit from knocking down or stunning a warrior with a higher initiative attack and then finishing him off with a lower initiative one though (HRLRB p. 21 Attacking Stunned and Knocked Down Warriors).
I was going to ask how people deal with this rule and weapons that work at different initiatives, since it's not as uncommon as it might seem. In addition to those stated above, you could have a Centigor with trample + double-hand weapon or a Sister of Sigmar with steel whip being charged, or any model with a crossbow pistol.

We've generally played it that the model still gets all their attacks but they are all rolled normally and the worst injury roll applies (assuming 1v1). For example, a Matriarch (I4) with steel whip and warhammer is charged by a human warrior (I3). Matriarch hits with the whip, wounds, and stuns the human; then even though he's down she still gets her hammer attack, though the warrior is not treated as stunned (and would suffer no further effect unless the hammer hits, wounds, and takes him OOA).

How do others handle it?
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 21:45

Perhaps it would be easiest to state that wound results are rolled after a model has completed all of his attacks for a round.
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conan the ballbearing
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 1:54

the problem with the steel whip is that the bearer does not have to be in base contact to use it, therefore if she stuns the attacking model it could be considered that said attacker did not make it into base contact and therefore the sister cannot use her hammer to take him out of action, as a house rule if the attacker is stunned or knocked down then the defending player would have to attack in the next round to take them out of action.
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 2:44

conan the ballbearing wrote:
the problem with the steel whip is that the bearer does not have to be in base contact to use it...

Bear in mind that the Steel Whip has been errata'ed to read as follows:

Mordheim Rules Review, page 4 wrote:
Page 85, Steel Whip special rules
Replace the reach special rule with:

“Whipcrack: when the wielder charges they gain +1A for that turn. This bonus attack is added after any other modifications. When the wielder is charged they gain +1A that they may only use against the charger. This additional attack will ‘strike first’. If the wielder is simultaneously charged by two or more opponents they will still only receive a total of +1A. If the wielder is using two whips at the same time then they get +1A for the additional hand weapon, but only the first whip gets the whipcrack +1A.”

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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 3:32

aah many thanks for that one Cianty, does this still include the parry rule, i haven't read that before. but back to the question at hand when in combat i find it best to picture the scene as in real time, remember Mordheim is meant to be a fast paced and flowing game. a model armed with double handed sword and a mutated tail attacks a model armed with a steel whip and a sword. The steel whip strikes first, all rolls regarding this act should be dealt with, but let us say it fails to wound. The attackers tail strikes second, and is parried say. Now the defending model may use its sword and so on. If at any time one of the models is knocked down or stunned then the combat is finnished and the remaining combatant should be considered as to preoccupied in the fighting around him to take out the fallen model until the next turn, remember these warbands are in the heat of battle and would be more concerned with self preservation than checking to see if one opponent is stunned or out of the fight for good
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 7:59

Precedent for initiative being used on a weapon-by-weapon basis was set back before spears were unwieldy and an early FAQ in Town Cryer said a model with a spear and sword would get their attacks at different times. I can't imagine the designers would have a complete u-turn on that so I would say that would be the appropriate way to deal with it. Of course anybody can apply house rules if they want, but that has been an officially printed response to a similar situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 18:19

catferret wrote:
Precedent for initiative being used on a weapon-by-weapon basis was set back before spears were unwieldy and an early FAQ in Town Cryer said a model with a spear and sword would get their attacks at different times. I can't imagine the designers would have a complete u-turn on that so I would say that would be the appropriate way to deal with it. Of course anybody can apply house rules if they want, but that has been an officially printed response to a similar situation.
Yeah, that's what I meant when I said I found some disparity in wording of the rules. Some rules, when read exaclty and carefully, contradicted others when talking about whether first/last strike applied to the model or weapon. However, I definitely accept cianty's interpretation and see where the intent of the designers is. Unfortunately, my original Mordheim book is packed away (for posterity), otherwise I could verify whether the double-handed weapon's last strike rule preceded the TC - if the double-handed rule wording was original, this could be tortuously construed to mean that there was an about face in that early TC... but that would just be silly. I'm sure the intent was there from early on, just not quite well-worded in all cases.
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Thu 23 Jul 2009 - 5:57

Hi guys!

I have a different take on it... As far as I can see in the rule book, there are no references to a model splitting up its attacks based on initiative. The rule for striking order are:

Normally, models fight in order of descending Initiative with the highest striking first. If their Initiatives are equal, roll a dice to see who strikes first.[...]

For me this means that you determine which model strikes first, and then he attacks with all his attacks. I also belive this is supported by the rules for great weapons, spears etc, which refers to the entire model, and not just the attacks.
This way of reading the rules also solve the wierd issue about stunning a model with an attack in one "phase", and then attacking it again later in another "phase" but still needing to hit and wound it.

I think that gives the best flow in the combat, and I also think it is most in line with the rules. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Thu 23 Jul 2009 - 23:32

Rytter, there are some precendents:
The rules for mutations (spines) in the (unfortunately not updated) rulebook and the rules for whips as stated in the rules review both clearly state that attacks (or hits in the case of the spines) are resolved at different times / initiative values.
So you can´t really conclude that all attacks of a model happen at the same time - even if it is more complex that way Wink .
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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Fri 24 Jul 2009 - 0:38

Yep @Horatius.

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PostSubject: Re: Is First/Last Strike per weapon or model?   Today at 4:38

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