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Mr.chair
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PostSubject: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 10:18

BS tends to have a double meaning when gaining advances as a beastmen player. You get a +1 to your ballistic skill, and since you don't have access to any ranged weapons it ends up being a load of BS. I've been trying to convince the players in the mordheim campaign I'm involved in to let me re-roll advance results of BS after my WS has been maxed out. It seems unfair to me that I should be playing one of a very few warbands where I can just get a useless advance. My fellow players claim it's intentionally done as a balance strategy. I would porport that no GW game has ever worried about balance and it's as likely that it's just something they never cared to amend.

Basically, I'm curious how the rest of you have delt with this issue in your own campaigns. Do models that can't get ranged weapons just have to man up and get a useless BS icnrease, or have you guys allowed some sort of extenuating circumstances?

Thanks,

Geordie
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Citizen Sade
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 10:29

Mr.chair wrote:
Do models that can't get ranged weapons just have to man up and get a useless BS icnrease ...
Yes, the swines that I play with make me take BS advances on my flagellants. That said, they are statistically more likely than most to roll LGT given that they start off maxed out on S, T & Ld.
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Ancre
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 10:34

I would tend to houserule it into allowing beastmen to re-roll or get something else, the more so because it is totally un-amusing to get useless advances - as you say gw never really cared about balance (they did pretty well with warmaster stuff though, it seems) and for me part of the mordheim fun will be remixing and modifying (and maybe even rewriting) the rules.
study
Besides, mordheim rules seems to me like a huge mess, lost in between all the town cryers, the empire in flames extension, the mordheim rulebook, the official and unofficial stuff, the glaring errors never fixed (like this one) and that's only what I could get my hands on. At least it needs to be regrouped and reorganized, to be more accessible, at best it need a v2.0. But it's not like GW is supporting this game really well ...


Last edited by Ancre on Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 10:35; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixing presentation of the post ...)
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Mr.chair
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 10:46

Or at all Razz

The solution I came up with was that if you choose to bypass a BS advance and re-roll then you forfeit your BS forever. It becomes a / and the model can never throw nets, holy water or anything else of the sort. Additionally, to make sure it was in all fairness I proposed that anyone be able to make that choice, even those heroes/henchmen who could normally take ranged weaponry if they had the desire. that way everyone gets the same opportunity. Still didn't get many takers. Bleck.
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Lanyssa Ryssyll
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 11:09

Why did you take BS and not WS ? Shocked
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Citizen Sade
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 11:29

Because you have no option if you've already taken the +1 WS as a previous advance.
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 12:10

Yep. We too have house ruled Beastmen to re-roll BS advances.

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Lanyssa Ryssyll
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 14:51

Citizen Sade wrote:
Because you have no option if you've already taken the +1 WS as a previous advance.

That's for sure, I'm stupid, sorry Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 15:18

Also for fluff, it's quite weird that you would gain experience in a field you do not even use (and therefore get no training in)...
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 15:28

Agreed, but some of my opponents are not really fluff bunnies. They would rather crawl backwards over broken glass than concede the point to my advantage. It takes all sorts, I suppose ...
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 16:49

I guess – I prefer to be somewhere in the middle – if you don't care about fluff you might as well play chess right? ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Mon 22 Jun 2009 - 17:41

While I thikn the concept of takin a BS advance on a model that cannot use missile weapons generally is ridiculous, its clear to me that the intent is to make those models take the advance.
There are other models that are in that situation. Ostland Ogres for one.
Look at Lizardmen Saurii and Kroxigors. BS 0. Though it doesn't say they can't get an adanvance. It implies that they cannot advance.

There is a needed correction if I ever saw one.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 17:50

Re-roll. Its a choice between WS and BS. You choose WS but its maxed. Re-roll. Thats what I did when I played a campaign for Beastmen. If they are both already maxed then you get to pick your level up.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 19:48

Dart82 wrote:
Re-roll. Its a choice between WS and BS. You choose WS but its maxed. Re-roll. Thats what I did when I played a campaign for Beastmen. If they are both already maxed then you get to pick your level up.
So then archers can choose BS a second time to roll again? I can't imagine anyone ever choosing to pick the other stat when they could have another shot at LGT.
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Your Mum's Warband
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 20:16

Polar Star wrote:
So then archers can choose BS a second time to roll again? I can't imagine anyone ever choosing to pick the other stat when they could have another shot at LGT.

Well, archers, as Henchmen, would not get a 2nd advance in BS as any Henchmen group can only ever take a single increase in any attribute.
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Nastyogre
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Tue 23 Jun 2009 - 23:25

"Characteristics for certain warriors may not be
increased beyond the maximum limits shown on the
following profiles. If a characteristic is at its
maximum, take the other option or roll again if you
can only increase one characteristic. If both are
already at their racial maximum, you may increase any
other (that is not already at its racial maximum) by +1
instead."

Its pretty clear. Beastmen and others like them MUST take the near useless BS advance. You can't chose to take your already maxed WS. If the characteristic is at it's maximum , take the other option. Because henchmen can only get a +1 increase in any characteristic, you take BS.

Do I think its right? No. But it is absolutely spelled out. You can only choose any other once you are at your maximums for both characteristics for that roll. (or the one if its only a single) What Dart proposes is overtly against the rules. Your maxed WS FORCES you to take the BS advance. Again, do I think it should be changed? Yes. I am really on your side, but the riules as written are very clear. You will have to house rule it.

Remember BS is not totally useless for Beastmen. There are a few pieces of equipment that you could take that you can throw. Holy water and nets are examples. While that's a pretty poor use of an advance... It still makes it potentially useful.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 5:09

Your Mum's Warband wrote:
Polar Star wrote:
So then archers can choose BS a second time to roll again? I can't imagine anyone ever choosing to pick the other stat when they could have another shot at LGT.

Well, archers, as Henchmen, would not get a 2nd advance in BS as any Henchmen group can only ever take a single increase in any attribute.
errr, right. I was saying that it really isn't fair to choose the upgrade you already have to reroll. Refer to the post that I quoted.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 7:44

I've mentioned this before, but I always thought it appropriate for Beastmen to be able to take Javelins. (If not the Gors, then at least the Ungors). Prepose that, if your group won't let you reroll.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 8:29

OR Throwing axes... that makes sense too. See all the little things that could get clarified/updated? So much sadness... at least Bloodbowl is coming out tonight...
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Thu 25 Jun 2009 - 9:40

It would be a re-roll.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Fri 26 Jun 2009 - 10:47

i have to say that it would be unfair to allow the beastmen to re-roll or add one point to another stat just because the +1 BS is pretty much of no use, taking that rout would mean any one who is unhappy with their dice roll should get the same treatment. say you have a hero who uses a long rifle and you always keep him back as a marksman, as he may have wounds that reduce his WS too far to be of use. What about pit fighters of Orc style who have no ranged weapons. It's far too a grey area to mess with. You would be far better allowing your beastmen to carry slings or thrown axes to make use of the BS
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Fri 26 Jun 2009 - 14:47

The difference is (if I followed well) that beastmen have absolutely no way to make profit of this BS advance. But I'm all in favor for the throwing axes, that's a pretty cool idea !
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 3:17

Or, how about house-ruling that any member of any warband can throw stones? Range of twice the model's strength, strength as user -1. After all, there's a plentiful supply of "ammunition" in Mordheim, isn't there?
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 5:17

Citizen Sade wrote:
Or, how about house-ruling that any member of any warband can throw stones? Range of twice the model's strength, strength as user -1. After all, there's a plentiful supply of "ammunition" in Mordheim, isn't there?

That's a pretty neat idea!
Wonder if "shooting" skills should work with it? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmen BS advances   Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 9:34

Yeah, I think I would be perfectly content if I had some slings or throwing axes in my list to make use of. As you say, there is holy water and nets to take as BS options, but they're not enough to make me feel like it's not a sad sad waste Razz Maybe next campaign I'll pitch the thrown weapon angle. Thanks for all the comments and advice everyone.
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