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Diegan
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PostSubject: Other games like Mordheim   Fri 19 Jun 2009 - 6:27

Hi!

I wanted to ask you what other 'skirmish' miniature games exist? I know, tons Razz

But what other games would you recommend, for their cool miniatures, cool rules, or both? Games playable with few miniatures, not with big armies.

Also, what do you think about Confrontation and Helldorado? I have read that Confrontation unpainted era is over but there are still miniatures to be found, Helldorado is also on a tight rope, but it seems cool. Both miniature games are not cheap, but are they fun? The game rules and army info are free, or expensive codexes like GW?
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Fri 19 Jun 2009 - 6:40

Never played Helldorado, but I was in to Confrontation for awhile. Quite fun for awhile, decent rules. Its the characters that I loved, how each warrior had tons of stats and abilities, made each one stand out. It's a game you can play with even just two or three minis in your warband, and up to I'd say twenty or so. Be ready for it to take a looooong time to play, though. With every single warrior having a numbe rof special rules, it does take an age to play. But I liked the detail.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Fri 19 Jun 2009 - 6:42

Some skirmish games that come to mind (all genres): Necromunda (sci-fi cousin to Mordheim), Bloodbowl (american football played essentially by Mordheim-like warbands), Mageknight, Heroclix, 40k skirmish, D&D skirmish, Star Wars..yeah there are tons.

Seems to me that there are far more Sci-fi themed skirmish games than fantasy.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Fri 19 Jun 2009 - 6:44

There's Lord of the Rings Battle Companies. I haven't played it yet, but sounds interesting. I put up the rules for that one on my website: http://www.tabletopgeeks.com/lotr-downloads/
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Fri 19 Jun 2009 - 6:48

Alkemy is also pretty popular.

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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Fri 19 Jun 2009 - 6:53

About confrontation:

-are the rules free? WHere can I find the codex to know what each character does and what each band does?

- If I have miniatures but not its cards, are cards readily available to download and print? (I have seen many confrontation minis on ebay that stay 'no cards'...

-Bands can be constructed with different characters from different armies (like a dwarf and a human or ork) or you gotta respect its race?

I think confrontation minis are some of the prettiest ones.

Thank you!
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Fri 19 Jun 2009 - 12:44

Unfortunately, as the game is no longer supported, finding stuff for it might be quite hard. The rule books, as far as I know, are not free. The cards you could download from their old site, but not any longer I don't think. Try their forums, there used to be a link to a fan-site that listed all the cards / artwork and such.

As far as composition goes the warriors are divided into different factions. But, in the end, as each troop has a point value, there's nothing stopping you from building a warband of any race.

The Dogs of War supplement is good for this, as it came out later it details how to make warbands, new rules, gain experience, etc... Both books are hardcover, beautiful art and painted minis, very nice. If you are interested, certainly it's worth trying to find them.

I don't play much anymore, but enjoy the minis and books still now and again.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sat 20 Jun 2009 - 10:06

Wyrd [ www.wyrd-games.net ] is due to release their Malifaux game in July. This is a steampunky Western horror skirmish style game with some VERY COOL minis. They'll be doing demo games at GenCon for anyone going to the Con.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sat 20 Jun 2009 - 10:28

Warlord from Reaper games.

Free rules and easy to get going with. Highly recommendable.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sat 20 Jun 2009 - 10:33

That reaper game could be interesting, especially if the miniatures are not very expensive Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sat 20 Jun 2009 - 11:53

A few options spring to mind for other skirmish games. I like GW's Lord of the Rings (LOTR) mechanisms. These are also used as the basis of the Legends of the old west (cowboys & Indians) and Legends of the high seas (pirates) rules too. That said, for the price of an old copy of LOTR on Ebay, it's easy enough to dream up your own modifications for any period or genre where you want to emphasise the heroic side of things. There's even a Yahoo Group were people discuss their own homebrew LOTR variants.

Another game which I've enjoyed in the past was Wargames Foundry's The rules with no name (TRWNN) for old west gunfights. There was also an 18th century warfare variant developed. Initially, TRWNN was available free from their website and was printed in Wargames Illustrated. More recently, they've made a pretty version for sale for £20 odd. You could probably find a file of the old, free one on the net somewhere though.

I can also recommend Sharp Practice from Too Fat Lardies if you fancy giving large scale (30-100 figures a side) Napoleonic skirmish a go. For sure, this sounds like a lot of figures, but you will find that historical figures are considerably cheaper than fantasy or sci-fi ones. Bitter old cynics like me say this is because of "the fantasy tax" that manufacturers like GW add to their figures.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sat 20 Jun 2009 - 12:04

http://warlordhq.reapergames.com/

And you can use substitute models from GW , though they have excellent miniatures for just about everything you could want.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sat 20 Jun 2009 - 18:46

My time is rather consumed trying to get Mordheim warbands and terrain ready but when has that stopped a gamer from expanding? Laughing I have been looking at Song of Blades and Heroes and other Ganesha Games

It looks like you could plug any type of groups into it, flexible.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sun 21 Jun 2009 - 3:23

Blue Moon have a bunch of cool & inexpensive box sets with downloadable rules & scenarios [ www.bluemoonmanufacturing.com ]. The minis are not all state of the art pieces but they paint up surprisingly well. thumbsup

Reaper's War Lord game has been something I've been dying to try...LOVING their minis MIGHT have something to do with this Suspect .R

Mordheim is REALLY more about the setting & the surrounding fluff than what rules or minis you use; SO whatever floats your boat would be operative here.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sun 21 Jun 2009 - 3:33

They seem cool, but rules cost 25 bucks and boxes 40... they do bring lots of miniatures, but I would rather buy a box of 10 minis of helldorado (incredibly beautiful) than 40 zombies that do not look so nice Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sun 21 Jun 2009 - 7:08

Okko seems to be a REALLY cool skirmish game also. For an idea of some INCREDIBLE terrain for the game, check this out:
http://wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?t=5258 . Cool, huh?! Karate
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sun 21 Jun 2009 - 7:41

It looks amazing!
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Fri 26 Jun 2009 - 6:46

A very nice pulp-style skirmish game is "Chaos in Ciaro", groups of adventurers fight for treasures in aegypt of the 1920`s. Nearly all miniatures for the time between 1900 and WWII can be used. Unfortunately I do not know if the rules are for sale at the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sat 11 Jul 2009 - 19:03

Urban War (successor to Void) is actually a pretty good system. Models aren't too bad either.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 12:40

Gorka Morka is a pretty good game, only it follows the old W40k rules!
It kinda like Mordheim with orc's and veichles fighting each other!
While it might be hard to find the mini's for Gorka Morka you can use the orc's from W40k without any problem!

The only thing missing would be the rules, but I bet it can probably be downloaded or something!
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 11:02

I dont know if it would be classed as a skirmish game but check out Wargods of Aegyptus at www.crocodilegames.com
Its based in ancient Egypt. You control warbands/armies of creatures based on your favourite Egyptian god. And the miniatures are phenomenal. I havnt played yet but have collected 2 armies and have read the rules. Its very interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 12:09

1. HORDES by Privateer Press. Probably the second most popular miniatures game in Europe, and, maybe even No.1 in the USA.

The minis are not cheap, but it is a game that can comfortably be played with 5-10 minis.

The idea: 1 Warlock telepathically controls a bunch of big, fat, mean warbeasts. As the warlock forces them into combat or to perform other actions, they build up rage a.k.a Fury, which the warlock, in turn, can use to fuel his spells, healing etc. But there is a catch: run your warbeasts too "hot" on Fury and you will have a good risk of them going into frenzy. This can potentially harm your foe, but will most likely backfire and beast will charge your own troops! In addition to a Warlock and Warbeasts you may also field small units of infantry (3 - 8 models/Unit).

The game
: Pretty straight-forward hack and slash. "Testosterone laden action" as the makers call it. But in addition to the potential for a lot of action, models have a lot of special rules and it requires some careful planning, strategic thinking and resource management. There are only 4 factions, so things are pretty well ballanced.

The Rules: The basic rulebook (Hordes: Primal) can be purchased here for €15, and is all that is required to play. It boasts 200 pages of full colour (take that GW!), with very nice a little manga-esque (some would say WoWarcraft-esque) illustrations. I am not a fan of this style, but have to admit that they do fit the game very well. For more interesting games, you can buy up to 2 expansion books (new units, new rules).

The models: You don't need many, but they are expensive. That's the only caveat I see. So you will need to invest around €50 if you want a small custom force. Alternatively you can buy a starter pack which is often a good idea and costs around €30.

My opinion: I may be biased as I recently succumbed to this game. I own a small force and I just love the models. They are very detailed, but are not overwhelming even for a beginning painter (unlike Rackham stuff, which on the paper looks great, but is a nightmare for most painter-gamers). I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I have read all the rules rather thoroughly (basic book + 1st expansion), and it appears to me as if they are very streamlined, thought through, simple to learn, efficient and rather clever.

Conclusion: HORDES is clearly a battle game. If you want something like Mordheim, you should probably look elsewhere. If you want a new, interesting, rule system that works and a new original game concept AND are serious about it, meaning that you are willing to invest a little money, you will probably like HORDES. On top of that, PP is a thriving company, so you can expect a living community and new releases. PP has recently announced the new 2nd edition of HORDES and WARMACHINE, due for release in 2010.

I cannot judge the gameplay aspect too well, since I still lack that experience, but on the other aspects I would give HORDES an 8/10. Had the minis been cheaper it would have been a 9. And I never give 10, because the perfect game does not exist.... yet Wink

2. WARMACHINE. Hordes's older Brother. Set in the same universe (Iron Kingdoms) as HORDES, but in an urban setting with Full Metal Fantasy visuals, rather than a rural one, the idea is similar.

The warlocks are called "Warcasters" and they control "Warjacks" (huge steam-and-magic-powered combat robots) instead of beasts. There is no Fury, but the currency is "Focus" which works slightly differently.

HORDES and WARMACHINE are playable against each other!

3. Confrontation. I have never played this game, but I know you need to buy the rulebook, which is rather expensive.

4. AT43. LIke Confrontation, a Rackham product. I have the rulebook and 2 codexes (codices?). I LOVE the Rackham artwork. I think their miniatures are TOP league in terms of originality and beauty. However, what I miss in their releases is body. The AT43 rulebook retails at around €25, and has only a meager 100 pages (full colour that is). The artwork is excellent, but the sections are very short, the explainations are sort of understandable (i.e. not clear, but they do make a certain amount of sense when thought about hard, which should not be necessary) and I couldn't help but get the feeling that the rules came loooong after the miniatues.
Also, I found that there are quite a lot of typos, which, for me, is an indicator or poor reviewing and a big NO-NO. A book should not have typos. Period.

I do own a few AT43 models, but I haven't played with those either unfortunatly. The models are VERY beautiful. That has to be said. Like all french miniature companies, Rackham produces excellent quality in that respect.

However, the poor literature shelves AT43 for me.

4) Hell Dorado. Again, you need to buy the book, There are quick start rules, but that does not count for me. The miniatures are certainly VERY unique and very creative.
But again, I sense the Rackham syndrom here.
Interesting setting and brilliant minis that appeal to the painter but are rather unsuited for the gamer, because they are very complex and fine sculpts. Also that make them virtually un-customisable for a Green Stuff layman like me.

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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 12:28

Tom, does Hordes/Warmachine have any persistence between battles or is it one off games? The biggest draw to Mordheim for me is leveling up my guys/keeping the same warband throughout multiple battles.

I'd heard of Warmachine before but never looked to far into it. I really just can't do tabletop games without being able to level up my characters.
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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 13:27

No, HORDES and WARMACHINE do not feature level-ups. That's what I meant by "battle game".

There is something called "bonding" for the campaign mode, where your surviving warbeasts gain certain "skills" that you roll for (2D6) and which you can keep, though.

But it does not have an actual XP system like Mordheim.

But then again, neither have any of the above listed alternatives Wink

In that respect Mordheim is pretty much unique.

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PostSubject: Re: Other games like Mordheim   Tue 21 Jul 2009 - 23:16

I'll just chime in and say that WarMachine and Hordes are pretty awesome. I've only played a couple of games and with only a few figures (basically a couple "Battle Box"s worth -- a good starting point if you want to give it a shot). The difference is that Hordes is about risk management (leave too much fury on the beasts and they go nuts -- killing anything) and WarMachine is about resource management (you get focus every round and have to allocate it to your warjacks in an efficient manner).

The one thing that seems to be tricky is that there are a lot of spells and special abilities to remember for your force. It's not just a "run up and hit them" game. The Warlocks/Warcasters spend fury/focus to cast spells which wreak all kinds of havoc across the field, disabling 'jacks or covering an advance in billowing smoke. Different Warlocks/Warcasters have different strengths and synergize with different kinds of armies. And knowing your enemy's strengths and weaknesses doesn't hurt either.

I played with the MkII "beta" rules that PP put out to get feedback (pretty neat idea) and I'm trying so very hard to wait until next year when they come out for real. They were very streamlined.

Last thing. Unlike Mordheim, the PP games are all about the fiction and the characters that the company puts out into the world. You don't name your warband. You don't come up with a leader. You choose which Warlock you want and the characters/troops to support him. They each have stat cards that come with the miniatures. And their backgrounds and trials are recorded as fluff in the rulebooks. It's a different approach than most GW stuff. And I resisted at first. But I'm okay with it now.

Also, Admin Tom is right. The miniatures are beautiful.
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