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 using spells to charge into HtH

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Daggermaw
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PostSubject: using spells to charge into HtH   Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 2:01

So this came up in a game the other day. I used a skaven sorcerer to charge a possessed using the black fury spell. We weren't sure if using the spell that i needed to roll a fear check as the spell takes place outside the normal charge rules. We amiably ended up dicing off for it, with me winning. I was wondering if there's anything in a FAQ about it or how some of you guys play it?
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ts061282
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 15:34

Looking at the language in the relevant sections of the rulebook, that particular spell would cause a fear check.

Black Fury (Magic of the horned rat): "may immediately charge"
Fear (Leadership & psychology): "If a warrior wishes to charge an enemy that it fears then it must take a test to overcome this."

vs.

Flight of Zimmerman (Lesser Magic): "may immediately move anywhere within 12", including into base contact with an enemy, in which case he counts as charging"

or...

Call of Vanhel (Necromancy): "may immediately move again up to its maximum Movement distance (ie, 9" in the case of Dire Wolves). If this moves them into base contact with an enemy model, they count as charging."

...which would not trigger the check, because the models only "count as charging" rather than actually charging. Second opinions? It seems like the ideal wording for these other spells would be "counts as having charged in the movement phase."
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Da Bank
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 17:18

ts01682 has done the research that I didn't want to do and is correct.

Charging is charging is charging so all normal rules must apply when charging. Your intent is to us the spell to get into close combat close combat rules require one to take a fear test against charging a fear causing model.

With that there are 2 different ways to decide where the "charging" model will end up.


Last edited by Da Bank on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 10:00; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : edited a miss spelled word)
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ts061282
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 20:10

Da Bank wrote:
Charging is charging is charging so all normal rules must apply when charging.

Yep, I am consufed. Are you saying all these spells mentioned would require a fear check?
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 20:16

Da Bank wrote:
ts01682 has done the research that I didn't want to do and is correct.

Charging is charging is charging so all normal rules must apply when charging. Your intent is to us the spell to get into close combat close combat rules require one to take a fear test against charging a fear causing model.

With that there are 2 different ways to decide where the "charging" model will end up.

What about when you stand up that turn and cast the spell? According to the charge rules you can't charge that turn, but you CAN cast a spell. The question of standing up and charging with a spell that turn came up before and most people agreed that it would be okay to charge because the spell overrides the regular charging rules.

Personally, I'm on the side of not allowing a charge when you couldn't normally charge, but there are good arguments on both sides.

EDIT: Here's the other thread for reference. http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/standing-up-and-charging-t1977.htm
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Tue 30 Jun 2009 - 11:24

Yes, a fear test would be required. You can not work around existing rules. If you are using the spell to charge and the model causes fear then you would not be able to charge the model.

Spells were not intended to work around fear causing models.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Tue 30 Jun 2009 - 12:51

So, if I charge a fear causing model on a second story with Flight of Zimmerman and fail the fear check, I stop in mid air?
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Tue 30 Jun 2009 - 12:52

ts061282 wrote:
So, if I charge a fear causing model on a second story with Flight of Zimmerman and fail the fear check, I stop in mid air?
I think it's more along the lines of you don't cast the spell because you are too afraid.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Tue 30 Jun 2009 - 13:39

Remember you CAN ONLY get in base to base contact with a model by DECLARING Charge. That is it. There is nothing that says this does not happen because of a spell. If you fail your fear test then you can't do the spell, pretty simple.

In order to Charg you MUST declare a charge. The magic and shooting phase is after this part so you MUST take a fear test. If you fail nothing happens.

Play the way you want but the rules are clear, they are only unclear if you choose for them not to be.
If you want a model in your warband to charge at an
enemy model and attack it in hand-to-hand combat
then you must do this at the start of the movement
phase before moving any of your other models.
When you charge a model, declare to your opponent
that you are doing so and indicate which of his

models it is attacking.

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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 2:20

I actually had a question about this spell too, but it seems clearer now:

Does the caster have to have line of sight to the target. I would say no because A) It's magic B)It's a D8 spell so it's gotta do something good and, most importantly C) you ignore all interposing models and terrain, which one would assume means a clear path. Even so, it can be argued that in order to have a target for the spell you have to be able to see them.

also, Da Bank the problem here is that the spell causes a charge in the magic phase, not the movement phase.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Thu 2 Jul 2009 - 10:25

There is no problem as you can not do this without following the normal rules for charging.

This has been discussed in years past many times but what I have explained is the rule.

People can house rule all you like but the rules for charging remain the same.

Read the rules for charging and that is it, it does not matter what phase the movement happens in you still must follow the rules for charging.


PS: I am ANSWER MOD DABANK for Mordheim on the SG Forums.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Fri 3 Jul 2009 - 8:08

Using flight of zimmerman can I charge a model on the other side of a building that I can't see.
I.e. just pick up my model and place him next the enemy where ever he is obviously within the 12"
I think yes but just want to make sure.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Fri 3 Jul 2009 - 11:16

Seems to me that the order of action is (starting in the shooting phase):

1. Roll to cast spell.
2. If spell succeeds, you get to declare a new charge.
3. If psychology tests would normally be required, take them now.
4. If succeeds, the charge succeeds as well.

"Counts as charging" and "Charging" are not different. The language just requires we say "Counts as" because its a charge happening in a phase that normally does not allow them. All other rules must still apply.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Fri 3 Jul 2009 - 15:16

The wording for Zimmerman seems to clearly bypass normal chargeing rules.

"may immediately move anywhere within 12", including into base contact with an enemy, in which case he counts as charging"

At the point "he counts as charging", he must already be in "base contact with an enemy".

A Rules Review might restate the spell: "...may immediately move anywhere within 12". If this movement would bring him into base contact with an enemy model, he counts as charging."
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 13:07

Cool I'm going to try get that next campaign. 24" charging vampire for the win.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Sun 5 Jul 2009 - 14:35

Again, this is not the case. Flight of Zimmerman does not supercede normally charging rules and or fear tests. There is not need for a RR as I am speaking as an official capacity as the Rules Moderator. I really hate saying the aforementioned every other time I post but that is what it seems it must come to.

House rule otherwise but at no time does the Flight of Zimmerman say you can supercede normal combat and fear rules.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Mon 6 Jul 2009 - 1:02

So, you have to cast the spell in the movement phase? Or declare you are casting the spell in the movement phase, then see if you cast it in the magic/shooting phase?

Maybe I'm dense, or maybe you're blowing smoke, but I have no idea what you mean because you're sort of contradicting the rules by saying you can only charge in the move phase and cast spells in the magic phase, but casting the spell would cause a charge.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Mon 6 Jul 2009 - 8:08

Does the spell say it supercedes a fear test? No it does not. Does the spell say anything other than it counts as charing? No it does not. It counts as a charge, thus you would still need to take a fear test.

Again, house rule if you want but spells /skills and etc were never meant to supercede normal rules unless noted. Please note accordingly in the rules in rules, skills and spells it will normally state if it is to do something different than the normal rules.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Mon 6 Jul 2009 - 9:52

Good rules are understandable. Better rules cannot be misunderstood. The way Zimmerman is worded in the rulebook, it is quite misunderstandable. I think Da Bank has cleared it up quite thoroughly and someone should come and lock this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: using spells to charge into HtH   Mon 6 Jul 2009 - 12:28

*someone mysteriously appears, summons a monstrous lock and goes poof*

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