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ts061282
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Fri 7 Aug 2009 - 11:17

Svenn wrote:
That balances shield vs dual wield maybe... but does nothing for shield vs 2h.

That's outside my scope right now. Can you state the problem of Sh vs. 2h? I would continue with 5+ shields, i don't think you're going to get better against 2h without shield bash skill or something.
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Fri 7 Aug 2009 - 11:20

ts061282 wrote:
Svenn wrote:
That balances shield vs dual wield maybe... but does nothing for shield vs 2h.

That's outside my scope right now. Can you state the problem of Sh vs. 2h? I would continue with 5+ shields, i don't think you're going to get better against 2h without shield bash skill or something.
Well, shield vs 2h is pretty much worthless. Dual Wield vs 2h is much better. So you balance shield vs dual wield to be equal against each other, but dual wield is much greater against 2h. Why bother with shield? Dual wield is the same or better in all cases. That's kind of why we've been talking about nerfing dual wield, yes? It's not just against each other that's the problem, it's a general case of dual wield being superior in general and no cases where shield actually shines.
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Fri 7 Aug 2009 - 11:24

I think I stopped following this thread 10 pages back or so... This has really gone on a long time.

The end result in my mind is that it confirms that +1 Weapon = +1 attack is the primary problem...

Just get rid of the problem, rather than trying to balance everything around the problem.

Proposed changes (Can't remember if its been mentioned before):
-Dual wield does NOT add +1 attack.
-Dual wield allows attacker to reroll ONE missed attack roll per round.
-Dual wield allows attacker to choose which of two weapon profiles are used to wound and injure after attack rolls are made.

Yeah, I know, it means your no longer strictly following WHFB DW tradition, but thats ok people. Mordheim =/= WHFB. Characters in Mordheim =/= Calibre of characters in WHFB.
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Fri 7 Aug 2009 - 12:08

You're right it isn't a good solution. Its the function c*I*A (c > 0). Not what we want is it? What we want is c*A + n where c < 0 and n > 0. This would be a "Dual wield is most efficient at 1 attack profile and less efficient as A approaches infinity".

And we also want to lock dual wield to be obviously less powerful than it is now correct? But I would say at some point dual wield is balanced for its return on investment based on the number of profile attacks. So lets assume at some point dual wield is a wash between the alternatives and we want that wash to exist in our new dual wielding system.

I'm going to pick an arbitrary point along that line and say at 2.5 profile attacks, dual wield in current mordheim settings should be about equal to dual wielding in our new custom awesome system we are creating.

Since the current system fancies a 1/x curve for what we are trying to balance and the new system is a simple -c*X + n line. We have to pick a C and an n. The N is the return on investment when you have 1 profile attack, and C is the diminishing returns of that investment (the slope at which the benefits of dual wield are reduced as more profile attacks are added).

if a shield gives a 1/3 chance of dodging a blow (roughly, not counting crits), we'll go ahead and assume that dual wielding should cancel this and increase the potential damage to 50% more than normal. So at A = 1, N = 1.5. Our arbitrary point in space (2.5 attacks) is going to be fixed as well and that return on investment is 3.5/2.5 = 7/5 = 1.4.

We have 2 points - (1,1.5) and (2.5,1.4).
y = -.066666*A + 1.566666

At 1 A: y = 1.500, A*y = 1.500
At 2 A: y = 1.433, A*y = 2.866
At 3 A: y = 1.366, A*y = 4.099
At 4 A: y = 1.300, A*y = 5.200

So lets try and fit something in.

Proposition: For each profile attack, roll d6. If you roll a 4, 5, or 6, you may make one additional attack with your offhand weapon. For each additional 6 you roll, you get an additional bonus attack as well. Very complicated yes, but I'm in the surreal realm of anything goes at the moment (Tweaking comes later).

Now for the evaluation of whats occuring:

1 A: You have a 50% chance to attack twice. Odds are you have 1.5 profile attacks!

2 A: You have a 25% chance of attacking twice (missing both dual wield rolls), and a 13.8% (5/36) chance of attacking 4 times (rolling 6,6 or 6,5 or 6,4), and a 61.2% chance of attacking 3 times. Odds are you have 2.888 profile attacks! (look how close that is to the A*y value, which is 2.866)

3 A: You have a 12.5% chance of attacking 3x (missing 3 dual wield rolls), 57.8% chance of attacking 4x, 26.4% chance of attacking 5x, and 3.2% chance of attacking 6x. Odds are you have 4.2 attacks on average.

4 A: Too complicated to compute, i used a spreadsheet with countif's on 3 A to simplify my life and i'll just guess that you'll have somewhere above 5 attacks but less than 6 Razz

So with this change we've effectively changed dual wield from (1->2, 2->3, 3->4, 4->5) to (1->1.5, 2->2.9, 3->4.2, 4->5.X)

But this is far to complicated for mordheim and is unreasonable. Try suggesting this to players and they'll look at you with that "Huh?" look.

We can simplify it pretty easily though. How about you only get your offhand attack on a 4+? It effectively adds "half an attack" to your profile for dual wielding. Pretty simple as well. But it is another dice roll you have to deal with in the hand to hand phase (Yuck)!.

I dunno, lots of food for thought here.

If you want to make it really simple and balance dual wield vs shields just say shields give a 5+ unmodifyable save before crits are assessed. It'll cancel 1/3rd of incoming attacks. The dual wield would go from 2 attacks to 1.33 attacks, from 3 attacks to 2 attacks, and from 4 attacks to 2.66 attacks. At 2 profile attacks the shield would completely nullify DW.

Did I go off on a tangent? Somebody smack me back into reality.
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Sun 9 Aug 2009 - 0:48

There is a balance issue between dual wield and shield in particular because you must forgo one for the other. There is a balancing issue with the game because the value of St changes based on the number of attacks. At three attacks a point of strength is wroth more than another attack. Additionally, as you face more attacks, a shield becomes more valuable. If you remove or restrict extra attacks, the game becomes more balanceable.

Suggestions:
Remove basic DW rules. Create DW skill replicating ability at -1 St (EDIT: or no penalty) and perhaps allow shields to be used as off-hand weapons under this skill.
Replace Attack advance on henchmen advance list with DW skill or more TLGT (switch Ld advance to 8 (perhaps add "and roll again" to Ld advance Razz)).
Replace Attack advance on hero advance list with "+1 I, +1 Ld, Roll Again" or more +St. Perhaps add +Attack for heroes to set experience points (40, 60), perhaps associate with a tittle (General, Count).
Shields are still worse than DW and should be, but should also be fairly standard for green troops.



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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Sun 9 Aug 2009 - 1:47

i've been thinking:

Why not use the skaven claws as an example for dual wield? a warrior that wants to dual wield may not switch any weapons during the entire game just like the claws.

so that makes them vulnerable for shooting and we should change the spear to let them gain +1 initiative.


there you have it, 2 choices to fight vs dual wield Very Happy and it makes spears also a nice countermeasure.
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Sun 9 Aug 2009 - 2:07

Paluke wrote:
i've been thinking:

Why not use the skaven claws as an example for dual wield? a warrior that wants to dual wield may not switch any weapons during the entire game just like the claws.

so that makes them vulnerable for shooting and we should change the spear to let them gain +1 initiative.


there you have it, 2 choices to fight vs dual wield Very Happy and it makes spears also a nice countermeasure.

Doesn't help shields except w/ spear and most shooting does a fair bit of armor negation, but maybe shield should always give partial cover bonus Smile
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Tue 11 Aug 2009 - 10:49

Balanced DW/Sh:

Off-hand: -1 to hit, -1 to wound, first round of HTH only
Sh: 4+ AS that does not combine with other armor

(Wound chance % change if you switch from DW to Sh for combat turn 1-4; avg'd over charger/defender)
Att % Wnd
1 -4.57%
2 -0.99%
3 1.88%
4 3.95%


These are not balanced to 2H as pointed out above, but 2h requires a skill to be directly compared. So remove skills or add Maniac Warrior skill making off-hand attack persistent and add a Shield Bash skill to allow shields as off-hand weapons.


Last edited by ts061282 on Fri 19 Aug 2011 - 18:42; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Wed 12 Aug 2009 - 1:17

Ts061282 you're forgetting that the shield is not the only alternative equipment for DW, how about Great Weapons? Of course, one could argue that raising the shields AS would give more people a good reason two use Great Weapons (two-handed weapons)
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Wed 12 Aug 2009 - 9:37

Well, no, I'm not forgetting that. A shield must be equivalent to the off-hand bonus at least some of the time in order to be viable. A 2hander must be equivalent to a main hand attack and an off-hand attack together to be equivalent. I've identified the issue of balancing 2H weapons with DW above: profile attacks. The only way to balance DW and 2H weapons is to remove or highly restrict profile attack advances because they are a factor in the value of +St. I don't see this as being something many would chose to do voluntarily so I'm not really pushing it. I've given the above "Balanced DW/Sh" to illustrate what a truly balanced option would look like as well as to illustrate why such a truly balanced option will not be adopted (too complicated/obtuse/unMordheim). As you suggest, this DW penalty is so severe as to make it less desirable than 2handers or other options in most circumstances. I'd like to point out as well that DW setups cost significantly less than 2handers and don't necessarily need to be equivalent and also 2handers need a skill to be directly compared, but that's a point for debate I suspect.

In summary, there's two issues we're discussing now: the prevalence of DW at the games initial state (primarily club and daggers going to double clubs) but now also the eventual attack advances that make +St worth more than +A and so 2H/halberd's take over as the stat king. These two issues are at odds because fixing the first (nerfing DW) exacerbates the second (DH ascension).
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Sun 11 Sep 2011 - 18:02

And 20 pages of number crunching has bored me to tears Sad

In all seriousness the DW vs Shield argument comes down to who gets the charge, DW guy has a better chance of taking down his opponent on the charge, Shield guy has a better chance of surviving if he doesn't.

A Sword and Shield model with lightning reflexes, a decent initiative and a missile weapon will put down a dual wielder before he has chance to attack and stands a good chance of making it to the second round of combat if he doesn't.

We've added a +1 AS to shields against shooting in the forward arc for our campaign and left it at that. I am considering implementing Path's idea for the Aftermath as I stated on the other thread but that's all it needs.
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Sun 11 Sep 2011 - 21:47

My jury is still out. Without a doubt, my group has decided that the humble dagger is the single deadliest weapon in Mordheim. Without fail, the main weapon will miss and the dagger will hit, or the main weapon will fail to wound and the dagger will wind up critting. The +1 armor save rarely makes a difference.

However, it's just hard to wound someone in Mordheim. First you have to hit. Then you have to hope they can't parry. Then you have to try to wound. Then you roll the wound and hope you put them down.

Then again, dual wield is so good it's actually stupid to not do it unless your model has more than one attack on it's stat line. Eh, jury is still out, as I said before. My solutions would be as follows -

1) -1 to hit.

2) No extra attack, but reroll your first miss.

3) Extra attack, but it cannot crit.

4) STR does not modify armor saves.
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PostSubject: Re: dual wield and chance   Sun 11 Sep 2011 - 22:22

biscuit wrote:
And 20 pages of number crunching has bored me to tears Sad

If you don't work within the numbers, how can you assert credibility in this argument?

biscuit wrote:

In all seriousness the DW vs Shield argument comes down to who gets the charge, DW guy has a better chance of taking down his opponent on the charge, Shield guy has a better chance of surviving if he doesn't.

This is only one of many possible factors/modifications.

biscuit wrote:
A Sword and Shield model with lightning reflexes, a decent initiative and a missile weapon will put down a dual wielder before he has chance to attack and stands a good chance of making it to the second round of combat if he doesn't.

Certainly, a model with skills and more expensive equipment will stand a better chance. This is introducing too many variables to make an overall argument. Let's say the henchman costs 15 gc and you've introduce 30 gc of equipment/skillls. I've still won by numbers of my club/dagger DW'ers.

biscuit wrote:
We've added a +1 AS to shields against shooting in the forward arc for our campaign and left it at that. I am considering implementing Path's idea for the Aftermath as I stated on the other thread but that's all it needs.

Define "forward arc" or "forward arc of our campaign" (ambiguous). I've responded to the suggestion of Path's solution in the other thread. Please respond in the other thread with relevant quotes (as this thread is a.) not stickied, and therefore b.) dead.).
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