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 On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)

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Ram Rock Ed First
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PostSubject: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Wed 13 May 2009 - 12:25

NB This Thread Post is split into 2 parts because it is BIG, but it is needed to be such a length so just bear with it and read it through in order. Also the formatting is abit weird, I copied it straight from Word, no idea what happened in translation. Cheers. Ram.



Before I begin, those newer members that have joined since I was here briefly then went through a ranting very rude couple of weeks that saw me temporarily banned for the past several long months (a General Apology has just been posted in the General Shouting Section for reference), I made a statement about a fortnight before Border Town Burning was officially released that told cianty and the other authors that the Ogre Maneater Warband needed a serious review before going to print because it was the most broken warband I had ever laid eyes on. I also made a statement that I didn’t have the time to expand on the reasoning and would do so later. I didn’t play a single game with the Ogres, heck I only got 1/3 of the way through writing out a starting list before it clicked how I could break the warband. My brother pointed out the first of the 3 self-sustaining batteries that made this warband broken and I figured out the other 2 almost instantly. The FAQ goes a long way to cancelling out what I have explained below now for the first time publicly online, but there are still fluff/game-play rules inconsistencies I have expanded upon in the last few paragrapghs as suggestions for future FAQ’s/amendments to BTB and the Ogre Maneaters, and feedback for both myself, and the authors I am sure, is appreciated on the matter.



Finally before I go into the whole explanation (which is quite long but needs to be so just slog through it) and the detailed examples supporting it all, I would like to address this quote:



Quote :
AdminTom, Sat Jan 10, 2009:

Quote :
Ram Rock Ed First:

…I must insist that the Maneater warband is not fit for publishing at this stage. It needs a review.


You see Ram, the warbands for BTB have been playtested many times and I think you should REALLY play them for a while to get a better impression.

Personally, I find that a lot of the time I read rules and think "Oh my god, that is so unballanced" and then, when I get a chance to try them out, and experience a few crushing defeats, I suddenly get more creative and start to exploit the rules to my advantage. And all of a sudden it does not look that unballanced anymore.

Example One. I play wood elves in WHFB and always got my ass handed to me by Ogre Kingdoms. I felt they were overpowered, until the day I learnt to "think out of the box" a little and adopted an extreme hit and run tactics (sure I could have thought of this earlier) and used a little more magic. All of a sudden it was the ogre player who lost 4 times in a row.

Example Two. Skaven look pretty overpowered in Mordheim from the rules. At least some people think so (I don't). But when you play them, I actually find they are more difficult to play than it looks.

So again, playing (more than ONCE!) is crucial to get an idea of the designer's intentions.

And then there is always the element of terrain. The warbands were tested on certain tables that certainly have a radically different setup from your table. So try to adapt your scenerey to the purpose a little and then try again. I won't conceal the fact from you that my victories against the ogres also came from the fact that instead of making and open field we later put 2 small woods on the table (+1 that Wood Elves may ALWAYS place before setup in their half).

I suggest you trust the BTB team a little and try the supplement with a little bit of good will. No wargame is 100% ballanced (except Chess perhaps), but let's not get obsessive about that either. If all else fails, you can make your house rules for Ogres if that makes you feel better.




I am a Power Gamer.



I am exceedingly good at Mordheim because I know how to power game. By Power Game I mean use the rules to my advantage in all aspects of the game, not just in game. I’m pretty sure Pancreasboy can vouch for that based off the campaign I played in that he ran incredibly well that ended in late 2007 (and saw me take home the amusing award entitled The Cheesemaker), as I was able to catch up and become competitive with warbands that had had 10-40 games on top of mine (1 game max for everyone each campaign turn so no way to catch up in games played). It rubbed up the wrong way initially till I settled in and it became fun for us all again. I’m not making this statement based on arrogance or being an arse about it all, I am good at Mordheim because I know how to power game and I’ve also played a heck of a lot of the game.



To Play-test properly and completely you NEED a power gamer involved, because whilst a lot of players can write and test rules and then come out with those rules being balanced and shiny, it’s only when the players who look at everything and start thinking how to break things become involved that you start to see stuff that you hadn’t before.



As I said above, I didn’t play a single game with the Maneaters before we (my brother and I) were able to find what was wrong with the warband that made it so unbalanced. It was only a small mistake in wording and rulings, but the effect is surprisingly astronomical. Cianty and the other authors and site mods and members of these forums, don’t take any of this the wrong way, Border Town Burning is really well done, I just found something you guys missed because no amount of play testing would have helped pick up on it.



The BEST way to explain this is through a Starting Warband:



Ogre Maneaters, Starting Warband - “Dinner Smells Tasty Tonight!”:



Heroes (3):

Captain (145)

Youngblood (45)

Youngblood (45)



Hired Swords (6):

Elf Ranger (40)

Freelancer (50)

Big Game Hunter {TC13 printing reference} (40)

Road Warden {TC26 printing reference} (40)

Bounty Hunter {TC 13 printing reference} (40)



Total = 500 of 500gc’s spent.



Why the 6 Hired Swords you ask? The upkeep is going to cripple you.



Sadly, however, anything but this will occur.



Time to quote some rules:



Quote :


Slow Witted: Although Ogres are capable of earning experience and bettering themselves they are not the smartest of creatures. Ogres only improve at half the rate of everyone else. They must earn twice the usual number of experience points to gain an advance.



Gluttony: Any model which is captured due to Serious Injuries or Exploration can be devoured and his possessions retained ...An Ogre devouring captured models is granted experience points equal to the number of models that were consumed. Any member or animal from your warband can be eaten the same way! Remove any consumed comrades from the warband roster immediately.



Cannibals: Most Hired Swords refuse to work for ogres, as they know for sure they'll end up being a meal sooner or later. An Ogre warband may never hire any Hired Swords, except for halflings (Scout, Thief, etc.) and the Ogre Bodyguard, or unless stated otherwise, in which case Ogres can choose to devour him when the contract ends (see Gluttony).



Ogre Special Skills: Dog of War: ...Drawing from experience gained during a stint on foreign soil, the band can now hire those Hired Swords available for mercenaries. This skill may only be taken by the leader and if he dies all Hired Swords are removed from the warband.





Lets break this down into point form to accentuate the situation:



Slow Witted - heroes survive a Battle and kill one person to earn the equivalent experience for advancement (whether played each full exp earnt in a game or whatnot counts as half an actual experience point or they end up with half the advancements of other warbands) whilst Henchmen earn 1/2 of the equivalent henchmen in other bands ie 1 full exp - an ogre henchmen needs 4 battles for that first experience roll and hopefully TLGT (Bulls, best chaps in the warband!). Now, there's nothing we can do to speed the Henchmen along to hero status, however, the Heroes, we can enhance and we can do it admirably.



'Gluttony' gives us experience points, 1 for each thing we eat! This seems okay, but then we look at 'Cannibals' and the 'Dog of War' rules and we now see a way to advance well.



We can eat captured enemy heroes but that's a rarish event and won't be happening easily.



We can capture and eat people from random encounters, again not so common.



We can eat hired swords instead of paying their upkeep fee.



We can eat animals.



We can eat our own warband members.



In all cases we get 1 experience point instead of an experience via the 'Slow Witted' rule as this is a warband special rule and states otherwise, so 1 full experience point for each thing eaten no matter its source as above.



However, whilst this breaks things considerably to catapult our heroes into absolute monsters lets make it even better for you:



'Gluttony' also states that '...his possessions retained' meaning that anything we capture, or in the powerhouse combination of the warbands very rules themselves - those we refuse to pay an upkeep to - are eaten and their possessions retained.


Last edited by Ram Rock Ed First on Wed 13 May 2009 - 12:45; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Wed 13 May 2009 - 12:26

These rules give you 3 things:



1) Virtually unlimited income in the longterm even if all heroes are KOOA so long as the Hired Swords survive;



2) A virtually limitless amount of easy to come by experience again as long as the money and the hired swords don't run out; &



3) A source of cheap, indeed free, basic through to the absolute rarest equipment available at the Trading Post and in some cases not available at the Trading Post.



All three of these points are Self Sustaining Batteries:



1) Self-Sustaining Income Battery

2) Self-Sustaining Experience Battery

3) Self-Sustaining Equipment Battery




Lets take it back to the example starting warband focusing on the cost to hire of the Hired Swords and what their equipment sells at as well as the total profits minus hire costs (and thus hire costs for a new Hired sword of the same type for the next battle):



Elf Ranger 40gc hire, equip: Elf bow, Elven Cloak, Sword – sells at (35+100+10)/2 = 72.5gc = 32.5gc profits



Freelancer 50gc hire, equip: Heavy armour, shield, lance, sword, warhorse – equipment and warhorse sells at (50+5+20+10+80)/2 = 165gc = 82.5gc profits.



Big Game Hunter 40gc hire, equip: Hunting rifle, light armour, sword, dagger, net – sells at (200+20+10+2+5)/2 = 118.5gc = 78.5gc profit



Road warden 40gc hire, equip: Crossbow, horseman's hammer (p.14 'Town Cryer 24), dagger, heavy armor and three torches (p.14 'Town Cryer 24). If you are using the optional rules for mounted models then the Roadwarden also rides a horse – equipment sells at ~130/2 = 65gc = 25 gc profits.



Bounty Hunter 40gc hire, equip: Sword, dagger, pistol, crossbow, heavy armor, helmet, rope hook and lantern – equipment sells at 127/2 = 63.5gc = 23.5gc profits.



Dwarf Treasure Hunter 55gc hire, equip: Gromril armor, helmet, mining pick, dagger, hammer, treasure maps and lantern rig (see below) – maps unsellable, mining pick as double handed weapon, lantern rig unsellable, therefore sells at 180/2 = 90 = 35gc profits.



This gives us a total Profit of 72.5+165+118.5+65+63.5+90 = 574.5



Total Profit’s – rehire costs = 309.5gc’s




After the first battle your Ogres have (assuming all hired swords survived the battle) gained 6 experience and 309.5gc’s pure profits in addition to anything they get from exploration. Each and every game from now on you rinse and repeat the 6 experience gain and 309.5gc profits or if you get tired of that you can just sell all the stuff and not rehire anyone and get 8 instead of 6 experience (the horses are animals and count as separate individuals for experience and consumption). Run the numbers the right way and you can keep all the equipment or the useful stuff like elven cloaks which would act to neutralise the large target rules for shooting or do something awesome and hire a Hired Sword that won’t pay for themselves again but gives you an item that enahances the power of the warband such as the Beast Hunter {TC 28} so you can get a Throwing Axe, strength 6 firepower (strength 8 with some drugs and poisons and throw in some other strength bonus’s from elsewhere and you can get to strength 10) - heck yes! Fiddle with the other hired swords available and even those that will return only 1 gc in self-sustaining profits still gets your battery going strongly. Dramatis Personnae got you down? Any that can be hired by Human Mercenaries, you too can hire. So eat them and remove them from the campaign permanently (Aenur the Sword of Twilight states that he leaves after the battle so no eating him for a one-of-a-kind magic sword of win sadly).



Hence why without playing a SINGLE game, nor even making a normal list, I was able to announce that the Ogre Maneater Warband was the most broken warband I had ever seen.



Now, the FAQ released after the BTB supplement was made available in its completed form had someone ask if you got to keep the Hired Sword’s equipment if you ate them. The answer stated that no you couldn’t, that the Ogre’s would eat the Hired Sword whole and that included his equipment which was on the Hired Sword. This fixes the battery issues barring the fact you can effectively purchase experience advances at 15/25/40gc for each point of experience you want each battle – just hope the hired swords don’t die that battle – but it will cost a small fee (but that’s okay, Ogre’s are small in number so you get a good price on your wrydstone).



However, the FAQ’ed answer whilst dealing with the self-sustaining batteries does not fit inline with the Background Fluff. If the Ogres are smart enough to take captured heroes’/heroines’ equipment and then eat the captured warrior, this implies they have managed to knock the warrior unconscious or restrained them whilst they took off all the armour and other items secreted around the warriors body. So why couldn’t they do the same on a Hired Sword? They may be dim-witted but they understand the value of equipment else they wouldn’t be stripping all equipment off of captured heroes. A nice suit of gromril armour on that Dwarf Treasure Hunter is of more value then this piddly bit of Light Armour this Young blood was wearing. So why are the ogres discriminating between a captured hero they are eating and an independent hireling that they decide would make good eating? It doesn’t fit with the fluff, especially when you consider the warband rule “Cannibals: Most Hired Swords refuse to work for Ogres, as they know for sure they’ll end up being a meal sooner or later.” The Hired Swords know they are going to be eaten if they become complacent so will be on guard to leg it at the first signs of this dire event happening – Ogres eyeing you off and licking their lips…not a very good sign. What’s more, the Dog of War Leader skill states that “This skill may only be taken by the leader and if he dies all Hired Swords are removed from the warband”. Why are the Hired Swords removed from the warband? It is because they know that their protection is no longer there and they are not safe so they leave before they get eaten.



What I ask is that the Warband rules be updated to state that Hired swords cannot be eaten. This is inline with the warbands background fluff and the fluff of the skills enabling you to hire hired swords in the first place.



One other point of amendment would be to bring the Dog of War skill FAQ’ed to state that all hired swords affected by the Dog of War skill are removed from the roster. This then means that the Hired swords the Ogres accept as company normally (Halflings and Ogres) and that they can hire any time, are not removed also when the leader dies. Again, a characterful and fluff based solution to wordings of rules that appear to contradict the fluff/game interaction.



These points aside, the Ogre Maneater warband is one of the most balanced Ogre variant warbands I have seen. Hard to get off the ground, yet solid, survivable and competitive if you play them well - So well done to the authors in any case.



Ram Rock Ed First.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Wed 13 May 2009 - 14:08

mordheim fallls apart when people min/max // powergame

i'd like you to pierce my rules sometime though


but not now
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Wed 13 May 2009 - 15:14

Perhaps I missed something but how can you make a starting warband with those hired swords wouldn't you need Dogs of War skill first so wouldn't you therefore need to play some games without the hired swords and advance slowly and hope for an advancement roll for a skill? So you need to go gather 8 experience pts before that all important roll hoping for a 2-5 or 10-12 a %50 chance otherwise you got another 8 experience before you can give it another go and get that skill. Seems like you could be a great many games in before the battery would get an initial charge to go. I see your point on the power level but I think a lot of things need to happen to really exploit it perfectly and always keep in mind the hardest piece to control is what your opponent will do to you in the mean time.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 0:24

Quote :

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<table cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><tr><td>Subject: Re: Why I Stated the Ogre Maneaters Were the Most Broken Warband Today at 7:14</TD>
<td class=post-options vAlign=top noWrap align=right> </TD></TR>
<tr><td class=hr colSpan=2>
</TD></TR>
<tr><td colSpan=2>Perhaps I missed something but how can you make a starting warband with those hired swords wouldn't you need Dogs of War skill first so wouldn't you therefore need to play some games without the hired swords and advance slowly and hope for an advancement roll for a skill? So you need to go gather 8 experience pts before that all important roll hoping for a 2-5 or 10-12 a %50 chance otherwise you got another 8 experience before you can give it another go and get that skill. Seems like you could be a great many games in before the battery would get an initial charge to go. I see your point on the power level but I think a lot of things need to happen to really exploit it perfectly and always keep in mind the hardest piece to control is what your opponent will do to you in the mean time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your point is taken robertrunner, it was past 1am in the morning and my sleeping patterns have been completely wacked in the past week or so. You can't get that starting warband but you can go and hire yourself a Halfling Cook, a Halfling Thief and an Ogre Bodyguard for less then 150 gc. That's straight up 3 exp to your heroes with the least experience. You also have the gold to hire those hired swords again and by the end of the second game you are guaranteed an advance.

But I think you are missing the point.

Yes it will take a few games before the battery kicks in but as soon as it kicks in You hire a freelancer and the big game hunter. You've now scored 161gc's including the rehire cost covered to get them again. You are making an inconsequential point on what your opponent can and can't do. You must remember that what the opponent can possibly do is completely irrelevent, the fact remains the batteries would take off regardless, and you can always throw your ogres at the enemy and hide all the hired swords behind walls, dismount the mounted ones and everyone just hides. If the enemy comes at you and manages to get past the ogres then there's upwards of 2-6 hired swords clumped to smash you because they can more then hold their own in such a tight formation.

Yes it could be many games in before it takes off, but this is not the point.

It is a playtesting point that all things need to be examined inside and outside of the game, you aren't observing the possibilities of the batteries being killed off ingame, you are instead looking at how much of an unfair advantage the batteries give you as a whole and how it breaks the warband and the game as a whole.

Quote :

Asp
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<table cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><tr><td>Subject: Re: Why I Stated the Ogre Maneaters Were the Most Broken Warband Today at 6:08</TD>
<td class=post-options vAlign=top noWrap align=right> </TD></TR>
<tr><td class=hr colSpan=2>
</TD></TR>
<tr><td colSpan=2>mordheim fallls apart when people min/max // powergame

i'd like you to pierce my rules sometime though


but not now</TD></TR></TABLE>

My experience with min/maxing and powergaming must be different to yours asp. Yes when one person does it it breaks the game and makes it unfair and more importantly unenjoyable to play. However, when two or more people do it, it starts to become highly competitive. It depends on the type of players in a campaign largely but it can be highly amusing at times.

To your rules, send me a message with links to them and whenever I get some time I'll read through them, and see.

Cheers mate,

Ram.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 4:48

Of course they're broken if you powergame! Hell's teeth, how can you expect all warbands to be balanced if you intenionally exploit all advantages! You have to write your list to not get too powerful, if you're playing an underpowered warband then exploit every little advantage, otherwise don't.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 5:15

Quote :
My experience with min/maxing and powergaming must be different to yours asp. Yes when one person does it it breaks the game and makes it unfair and more importantly unenjoyable to play. However, when two or more people do it, it starts to become highly competitive.

only if (1) all warbands are balanced and (2) all rules are clearly defined

everybody agrees that neigther 1 or 2 applies to mordheim
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 13:58

Chad wrote:
Of course they're broken if you powergame! Hell's teeth, how can you expect all warbands to be balanced if you intenionally exploit all advantages! You have to write your list to not get too powerful, if you're playing an underpowered warband then exploit every little advantage, otherwise don't.

Well, the sad thing is, when writing a warband, you HAVE to look at the cheesy point of view too. True, if power-gamed out, any warband can be uber-power and broken, but the important thing is to catch any rule that makes them UNSTOPPABLE. For example, Cianty and the other BTBers eventually found the Money-Machine hole on their own... but if they hadn't, the warband would have been unfair.

Personally, I don't power-game at all, I play for flavor. But if the addition/rewording of a single sentence is all it takes to make a warband less exploitable by those who do play to win, all the better.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 15:47

Styro: I agree with you on every point, but there's no point playing Mordheim if you powergame! The game itself is broken! We all know this!
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 18:18

I agree with Styrofoam and Chad on this. I personally do not powergame. I personally play to have fun, unfortunately there are many among us who love to be beardy, cheesy and basiscally slime balls.

Since Mordheimer and myself have been writing Death Squads a 40K TRUE Skirmish game we have found it IMPOSSIBLE to cover ever single aspect to prevent abuse. I mean IMPOSSIBLE, well you could but the book would be 500 pages and would take years and years to write. No one wants to wait for years to get a new codex or army book and nor do they want 500 pages.

I have a new found appreciation for those who write rulebooks and codex as now I see why and how they can't catch it all and FAQ must come out.

In our rulebook we actually have a statement against powergaming, beardy and chessy players and the intent should be a balanced playing game. Again even this can be taken for granted.

Ram...you are a person I would NEVER be allowed in my gaming group and I kick powergamers out and tell them they are no longer wanted. I just brought this up on Tuesday when someone wanted to try something that was 'way over the top" and I told them there is the door. Powergamers detract from the games unless you are trying to prevent it. Seeing how most rules will never change it is almost pointless at times to even bring it up.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 19:39

Da Bank wrote:

In our rulebook we actually have a statement against powergaming, beardy and chessy players and the intent should be a balanced playing game. Again even this can be taken for granted.

Ram...you are a person I would NEVER be allowed in my gaming group and I kick powergamers out and tell them they are no longer wanted. I just brought this up on Tuesday when someone wanted to try something that was 'way over the top" and I told them there is the door. Powergamers detract from the games unless you are trying to prevent it. Seeing how most rules will never change it is almost pointless at times to even bring it up.

Too many times I see, "That's broken, and if you use/bring it you're a powergamer." Where is the line that separates optimization from "power gaming?"
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 22:31

Earthcrosser599 wrote:
Da Bank wrote:

In our rulebook we actually have a statement against powergaming, beardy and chessy players and the intent should be a balanced playing game. Again even this can be taken for granted.

Ram...you are a person I would NEVER be allowed in my gaming group and I kick powergamers out and tell them they are no longer wanted. I just brought this up on Tuesday when someone wanted to try something that was 'way over the top" and I told them there is the door. Powergamers detract from the games unless you are trying to prevent it. Seeing how most rules will never change it is almost pointless at times to even bring it up.

Too many times I see, "That's broken, and if you use/bring it you're a powergamer." Where is the line that separates optimization from "power gaming?"

Exactly.

@DA BANK, you would never allow me or I presume my brother to play in any of your campaigns and yet this is on the assumption that in optimizing a warbands efficiency and playability we are out and out being beardy, cheesy and powergaming. And yet if anything could be further from the truth it's a statement such as that. Yes we play to a point alot of the time that it can be construed as powergaming, but we don't out and out power game. If we had our most successful warbands and campaigns would not see us bringing in many role playing style elements to enhance the story of the game and the warbands participating. We've expanded the experience charts to 180 exp (it's shiny and at some point will get posted somewhere semi-official) for heroes and this brings in an extra 10 advancements but at the same time we increase the difficulty of any campaign based encounters. There was a scenario stealing Griffin's eggs, we played that, and thought 'Hey, this is boring, wouldn't the parent Griffins be in range to come back and kill whoever is stealing the eggs?' and thus they did, nasty, nasty critters, yet I stole some eggs, and we made rules to develop the griffin from a baby up to a full blown adult and as such I have a baby Griffin in my 3 elf shadow elf warband. It was a very characterful addition, but balance is key, and we bandy around ideas on what to take and what to do to balance warband power and as such yous ee the skaven with a pair of rat ogres pully chariot like plague carts about...Wht I'm trying to say is, you're working off teh assumption that just because one knows how to use the rules to their advantage and beard up doesn't mean that's the only way they play nor indeed the way they do play.

Games for me in Mordheim with people outside 2 or 3 core opponents are sporadic. the distance to the nearest Battle Bunker at GW is a good 2 hours travel. Thus when you see the occasional Mordheim campaign surface there you're in once a week if that and in that time, without structured campaign turns you go from playing 2 games that first day with everyone else to facing off against warbands with 400-600 experience. It's an uphill slog that to balance you powergame completely. When you counter people who sit on high and slaughter you into the ground in such a way that you have no chance of attacking them at all by sitting behind a wall and hiding and telling them to come to you so they can have a taste of their own medicine, or when you take a warband with 150 odd rating against one in excess of 600 and beat them, people step back and accuse you of cheating, being a cheesy rat bastard and any of a myriad of other things. When you counter people who are way ahead of you in power and thus you are in an uphill situation, by playing a game well and optimizing it and yes even power gaming, you bring abalance to the playing field.

If you'd still kick me after all that, then you and your group aren't worth the time of day sadly DA BANK, as I would enjoy playing other people more often.

Quote :

StyrofoamKing<table cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><tr><td width="100%">Fri 15 May 2009 - 5:58 </TD></TR>
<tr><td colSpan=2></TD></TR>
<tr><td colSpan=2>
<table cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=0 width="90%" align=center border=0><tr><td>Chad wrote:</TD></TR>
<tr><td class=quote>Of course they're broken if you powergame! Hell's teeth, how can you expect all warbands to be balanced if you intenionally exploit all advantages! You have to write your list to not get too powerful, if you're playing an underpowered warband then exploit every little advantage, otherwise don't.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, the sad thing is, when writing a warband, you HAVE to look at the cheesy point of view too. True, if power-gamed out, any warband can be uber-power and broken, but the important thing is to catch any rule that makes them UNSTOPPABLE. For example, Cianty and the other BTBers eventually found the Money-Machine hole on their own... but if they hadn't, the warband would have been unfair.

Personally, I don't power-game at all, I play for flavor. But if the addition/rewording of a single sentence is all it takes to make a warband less exploitable by those who do play to win, all the better.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Styrofoamking hits the nail on the head and puts an emphasis on my previous point. Playtesting needs powergaming so as warbands are not UNSTOPPABLE. The income, experience, equipment battery loop hole in the rules were open to abuse and the simple rewording of one or two sentences to more inline with background fluff and to make the abuse cease to exist is all that is needed. Many times, all you need is someone witha sound understanding of the rules and the myriad possibilities and combinations that the rules can present to find said loop holes. It's why in the first place I reacted so strongly to the scorn heaped on me by cianty and AdminTom when I proclaimed I didn't need a single game to BREAK the Ogres. 3-4 games in nothing would be able to stop me, all I needed was to read the first 2 pages of the warband and it was right there. It was not because I was powergaming ingame, but because I was abusing rules post game. This is why I didn't need a singloe game and why the developers and playtesters oveerlooked the batteries, because they were NOT playtesting ALL ASPECTS of the game, just the playability...

Quote :

Chad<table cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><tr><td width="100%">Fri 15 May 2009 - 7:47 </TD></TR>
<tr><td colSpan=2></TD></TR>
<tr><td colSpan=2>Styro: I agree with you on every point, but there's no point playing Mordheim if you powergame! The game itself is broken! We all know this!</TD></TR></TABLE>

The game isn't broken. It's survived a full decade of play and a fan base that keeps coming back to it. If it was broken it would not have lasted the test of time as it has. How is it broken to you Chad?

Ram.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Thu 14 May 2009 - 23:01

Just gonna throw in my two cents.

It gets to be powergaming when you can rehire people over and over, and word doesn't spread about your ogre warband eating everyone they hire.

Optimization would be taking all your advantages into play - such as taking advantage of your high Str score or something simple like that.

Your battery works like a charm rules-wise, but alas, if this were Mordheim (or any other part of the world) I would say that after the first two hires, people quit allowing you to hire them. It would be silly to go and get eaten by ogres! Word would spread pretty fast in the mercenary rings! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Fri 15 May 2009 - 2:40

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that it is probably not the most balanced thing to do. I probably reacted a little too quickly when I read Da Bank's post.

I mean, honestly...that's the kind of group that I would avoid like the plague. If I even bring something up and everyone jumps on me for powergaming and has the nerve to say, "There's the door," then I'm much happier not being included.

But hey. The "power gamers" are the ones that should be paid to analyze new rules when they're printed. People gaming for fun never have anywhere near as much useful feedback as people trying to push the rules to their limits.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Fri 15 May 2009 - 3:06

Styro: if you get two people to game, one's a fluffer one's a powergamer. Who's going to win 9 times out of ten? Any game is broken if you can abbuse it, Mordheim's survived so long because people are drawn to the fluff, and the whole playing-for-the-moment head-space. And those sort of people are less likely to abbuse the rule-set.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Fri 15 May 2009 - 3:25

Renamed the thread to match it's actual content. And be nice to each other Smile
- Admin Tom

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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Fri 15 May 2009 - 3:30

@Earth..Thanks for the feedback but remember I am the ANSWER MOD for Mordheim on the SG forums. I know when someone is power gaming but I do understand fully that people can also use it to your advantage. This really all depends on the type of people you want to play with or who you are stuck with as not everyone has an endless pool of players to pick from and I fully understand that.

@Earth...you are exactly correct, powergamers can help people fix the rules if that is there intent but if there is no chance in the world the rules will change then don't do it. They are useful for creating but are not useful in regular games between you and me. Very Happy


@Ram...correct I would not powergamers play in my campaign. That is it and it is pretty simple. There are a few gamers who are not allowed to play in our group.


I never buy all the cool toys in Mordheim, that is just me. I only buy what I think is cool. I never think about how to get some model to attack 15 times as it was NEVER intended to happen or how to get 25 rerolls in a game and etc. Trying to prove it is possible does not prove anything as the INTENT of the game was for it not to as you can not cover ever single aspect perfectly, it just can't happen.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Fri 15 May 2009 - 4:41

I just can't see the appeal in powergaming, isn't it more fun to see how many hochlanders you can get? Sure, three costs more than a starting warband and aren't worth the gold, but it's fun! And sending in that lone henchman on an impossible assasination missiona imed at your opponent's leader is so funny, even (especially) when they just get chopped to pieces (I once sent a marksman with two daggers and a blunderbuss after my mate's noble (half my Mordheim-buddies play dwarfs, why?), he fired the blunderbuss, stunned, charged in next turn, finished the job, got charged by two slayers, an engineer and as many henchmen as could fit around the base. That was perhaps the tenth time I'd tried something like that, and by a lucky fluke it paid off and gave everyone laugh (except the nobe and marksman, who both expired).)
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Fri 15 May 2009 - 5:10

Chad wrote:
Styro: if you get two people to game, one's a fluffer one's a powergamer. Who's going to win 9 times out of ten? Any game is broken if you can abbuse it, Mordheim's survived so long because people are drawn to the fluff, and the whole playing-for-the-moment head-space. And those sort of people are less likely to abbuse the rule-set.

Well, I'm a fluff player and I seldom win, but that's often because a) we often play multiplayer, where you have a reduced chances of winning anyway, and b) I'm a lousy tactician. tongue

Ironically, those who power game are often balanced in our group, as the other, semi-fluff players recognize that the warband has a higher strength than its rating suggests. It may seem unfair, but a powergamer will often be facing 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 odds... and still has a good chance of winning as the warbands trip over themselves and in-fight. True, most of them don't seem to be as skilled at is as Ram, but there still know a thing or two.

Ultimately, it's whatever you have fun with. If you're the one fluff player in a power-gamer group, it's not cheesy for them... you're the one who enjoys a different aspect of the game. They enjoy the mental challenge and the number crunching. All you can do is hope that you find a group of like minded individuals. Or fail that, try to convince them by example... (for example, since I joined my group a few years ago, the style has gotten more fluff-oriented. That could be a coincidence, or the revolving door of people, but maybe people realized that there can be fun in flavor as well.)
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Sat 16 May 2009 - 5:23

Dear everyone.

This post is titled as follows;

'Ram Rock, making a meal.'

1. At no stage did the author of this post attempt to contact the Border Town Burning development team. Other hobbyists thankfully did so during the very lengthy period during which the supplement was produced. Their suggestions were all gratefully received and their contributions credited where applicable.

2. A lot of hobbyists at different levels participated in the playtesting of the BTB supplement. This ranged from tabletop beginners to tournament experts. In my group, we had text book 'power gamers' participating, some of whom were good enough sports so as to put the narrative and campaign rules development before their own egos! The group included 2x MTG tournament CCG players who have attained numerous competitive play accolades and both have previously held the rank of no.1 in the United Kingdom.

3. Whenever an ogre model receives +1 experience point, that point is automatically halved. Therefore whenever +1 experience is acquired through ogre Gluttony, it is halved. I would have thought that this was quite obvious.

4. The special rules for Gluttony do not specify what happens to the equipment that belonged to a devoured model. One should not assume that the special equipment from a hired sword is ever* added the warband's stash following his being consumed. Anyone who is interpreting a rule to this effect could be said to be guilty of manipulating game rules to their own advantage. Many of us will have done this from time to time in the heat of the moment! A few examples of this type of behaviour were included in the BTB FAQ for posterity.

*Hired swords equipment is not as a rule allowed to be redistributed. This is an important rule worth adhering to. There are exceptions which can be made during campaign play and these can help to create some very dramatic stages in the colouring of a strong narrative. I would recommend making exceptions in connection with the use of the Merchants Caravan, which in my humble opinion is one of the greatest achievements of Border Town Burning and one of its best contributions to Mordheim.

5. A starting ogre warband cannot include the hired swords listed in the example list supplied at the beginning of this thread.


6. Dramatis personaes were not mentioned in the Maneaters warband rules. There was a point when I considered this might not have been the best idea. As I recall when Cianty and I discussed this, we had been happy to leave the situation open. Unless Cianty FAQ'd the matter then hobbyists were encouraged to develop their own interpretations during campaign play.

7. Applying FAQ's to the 'meal deals' for the sake of one hobbyists interpretation of Warhammer fluff does not appeal to me. Perhaps if the contributor is well read enough from desirable source materials which apply to the subject, then he should consider contacting the authors of Border Town burning to discuss the case in point.

8. Anyone who thinks that they could defeat my fellow play-testers in a game of Mordheim based on a battle they have played in their head, is sadly deluding themselves. Wink

9. The best contribution that anyone has previously placed on this thread was that which our chief administrator took a moment to post. Thank you Tom. Top job on retitling the thread also sir.

Regards,

Werekin.

B-)
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Sat 16 May 2009 - 7:11

And that pretty much sums it up. Good post Werekin.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Sat 16 May 2009 - 15:13

and to think he had me going for a few minutes, thanks for clearing that up Warekin!
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Sun 17 May 2009 - 1:20

Da Bank wrote:
@Earth..Thanks for the feedback but remember I am the ANSWER MOD for Mordheim on the SG forums. I know when someone is power gaming but I do understand fully that people can also use it to your advantage. This really all depends on the type of people you want to play with or who you are stuck with as not everyone has an endless pool of players to pick from and I fully understand that.

Indeed. I apologize if I was out of line.
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Mon 18 May 2009 - 5:14

werekin wrote:
Dear everyone.

This post is titled as follows;

'Ram Rock, making a meal.'

1. At no stage did the author of this post attempt to contact the Border Town Burning development team. Other hobbyists thankfully did so during the very lengthy period during which the supplement was produced. Their suggestions were all gratefully received and their contributions credited where applicable.

Firstly, the author of "This Post" is yourself Werekin. Learn to use the English language properly before you use differing tenses that might be misconstrued by other people, especially people to whom english is a second language to which many members of the community it is.

I was on here for a few weeks, eventually read the BTB supplement stuff ie the Maneaters list and skimmed through the other 6 supplements released at the time and posted in the BTB Thread that you guys needed to wait to release the final product as the list was broken. I also made a point to say it would take some time to post as I was having a pretty crap time in rl and time wasn't exactly available to sit and do it all at once. I also asked in the same thread if the rules as presented were the final rules for the warband, to which I got no response. Some of those posts have since been deleted from these boards. Considering I looked at the rules 1 week before the BTB Supplement was released you might want to think about the fact that cianty and others who had worked on it basically didn't take my statements as having any value and went right ahead and released BTB anyways. If I had been given another week or two, the thread as released here would have been sent, but please note it took well over 2 hours to write properly after all. Oh and as you may not be aware, I was banned from these boards for over 4 months before I could follow up in any case. I have recently been allowed back and am trying to start on a clean slate again. How can one contact the BTB development Team when one is banned from the forum that has the BTB Development Team details there?

Quote :
2. A lot of hobbyists at different levels participated in the playtesting of the BTB supplement. This ranged from tabletop beginners to tournament experts. In my group, we had text book 'power gamers' participating, some of whom were good enough sports so as to put the narrative and campaign rules development before their own egos! The group included 2x MTG tournament CCG players who have attained numerous competitive play accolades and both have previously held the rank of no.1 in the United Kingdom.

MTG CCG players are not necessarily great Tabletop Wargamers. Yeah they can work their skills with a card game but does it translate to a tabletop strategy skirmish game where the rules and whole game mechanics are completely different? Maybe, maybe not. Bad example.

Question, have any of those MTG players that playtested won any GT's?

Further question: Have there been any major recognised Official GW SG Mordheim Tournaments anywhere in the world that could come as relvent in comparison to MTG players whom rank first in the U.K. at some point in their lives?

The answer to the second point is no.

This point just says you guys had alot of playtesters. Wow, great.

Quote :
3. Whenever an ogre model receives +1 experience point, that point is automatically halved. Therefore whenever +1 experience is acquired through ogre Gluttony, it is halved. I would have thought that this was quite obvious.

Point taken, apologies for overlooking it, it doesn't take away from teh battery itself though at all, so whilst it slows the exp battery down it doesn't actually effect it at all.

Quote :
4. The special rules for Gluttony do not specify what happens to the equipment that belonged to a devoured model. One should not assume that the special equipment from a hired sword is ever* added the warband's stash following his being consumed. Anyone who is interpreting a rule to this effect could be said to be guilty of manipulating game rules to their own advantage. Many of us will have done this from time to time in the heat of the moment! A few examples of this type of behaviour were included in the BTB FAQ for posterity.

*Hired swords equipment is not as a rule allowed to be redistributed. This is an important rule worth adhering to. There are exceptions which can be made during campaign play and these can help to create some very dramatic stages in the colouring of a strong narrative. I would recommend making exceptions in connection with the use of the Merchants Caravan, which in my humble opinion is one of the greatest achievements of Border Town Burning and one of its best contributions to Mordheim.

Quote the rule on re-distributing the Hired Swords stuff. Does it mention anything about the model being eaten? No. Why? Because Gluttony is a made up unofficial rule. There's nothing that sup[ports the equipment being eaten and nothing that supports the equipment not being eaten. The fact that you can take an enemy hero who is captured and eat them yet retain their equipment supports the notion that the same applies to the hired sword. But equipment can't be redistributed? Yeah, whilst the Hired Sword is alive. He is dead, and his equipment is either eaten or not eaten. The fact you had to FAQ it after BTB was released backs up the point that you hadn't picked up on it. Not until AFTER the final product was released. If it was picked up before hand, you would have written it into the rules. In any case the FAQ didn't actually explain why the hired swords stuff was eaten when the captured heroes stuff wasn't? Some would say your continuity of rules in this case is questionable.

Quote :
5. A starting ogre warband cannot include the hired swords listed in the example list supplied at the beginning of this thread.

And if you'd bothered to read the whole thread you will have seen that I acknowledged this already but also mentioned that your first skill on your boss and bam suddenly the batteries can be set up. Because you'd have 5 heroes at this point maybe 6 you'd be able to afford most of those Hired Swords anyways. Point 5 that you make Werekin is worthless to the overall arguement.


Quote :
6. Dramatis personaes were not mentioned in the Maneaters warband rules. There was a point when I considered this might not have been the best idea. As I recall when Cianty and I discussed this, we had been happy to leave the situation open. Unless Cianty FAQ'd the matter then hobbyists were encouraged to develop their own interpretations during campaign play.

My apologies on missing this point when I wrote up the posts a few days back, but dramatis personnae are an aside to the whole arguement put forth for teh Hired Swords.

Quote :
7. Applying FAQ's to the 'meal deals' for the sake of one hobbyists interpretation of Warhammer fluff does not appeal to me. Perhaps if the contributor is well read enough from desirable source materials which apply to the subject, then he should consider contacting the authors of Border Town burning to discuss the case in point.

I have a name.

Use of the term 'The Contributor' paints you as a stuck up arse high on his own self worth and supposed superiority.

Yeah, you can go off at me for that sentence but I have a name. Use it instead of being a douche about it.

Additionally re: Point 1 above. And your point 7 is alsoa reiteration of your point 1. Furthermore, your interpretation that the fluff to teh game be ignored as not agreeable to you undermines the whole concept of a flavourful warband especially when you make the point in your point 1 of:

Quote :
... In my group, we had text book 'power gamers' participating, some of whom were good enough sports so as to put the narrative and campaign rules development before their own egos!...

You make a point of ignoring the fact I made a SUGGESTION and asked for comments from everyone else yet are arrogant enough to use this post above in your point 1 directed at me and ignore the fact that your point 7 concerns the fluff of the game as a whole in relation to proper warband design and continuity.

Quote :
8. Anyone who thinks that they could defeat my fellow play-testers in a game of Mordheim based on a battle they have played in their head, is sadly deluding themselves. Wink

Your statement is not grounded in fact. It is a statement made from a personnal point of view not supported by any supporting evidence that also disparages people who do find loop holes in the texts of a game to not speak up because they'll only be ignored.

How do you know I can't beat any one of your group or anyone else on these boards from only reading the list itself? Throwing all the stuff together, figuring out the best way to build the list and warband in the longterm and then crushing you under my foot is not as hard as you point out. If I didn't have this confidence in the game then I'd not be a good playtester nor player as a whole would I?

Quote :
9. The best contribution that anyone has previously placed on this thread was that which our chief administrator took a moment to post. Thank you Tom. Top job on retitling the thread also sir.

Allow me to quote AdminTom:

Quote :
Renamed the thread to match it's actual content. And be nice to each other Smile
- Admin Tom

re: point 7.

My apologies to AdminTom for responding that way, but is is fully warranted under the circumstances.

Use ones' name Werekin, it's called polite forum etiquette.

Quote :
Exarch Thomo:
And that pretty much sums it up. Good post Werekin.


Quote :
Pathfinder Dubstyles:
and to think he had me going for a few minutes, thanks for clearing that up Warekin!



You might want to read through and digest everything I've just stated first, such as Werekin not reading the whole thread through as seen in his point on Dramatis Personnae already examined and dealt with above, as well as his wonderful ignorance of the fact that I did what I could at the time to get a response up when I was able, but unfortunately could not, and thus that first post which an astute observer will note tries to discredit the arguements outright by making the point that I, the author of the thread, did nothing to contribute at the time before release, when this is anything but the case.

You might also recognise the fact that there is NO OFFICIAL GW SG stand on these rules and what happens to equipment on a Hired sword after he is eaten BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OFFICIAL RULES ON CHARACTERS BEING EATEN. I at least supported it based off of conditions of eating as per the Maneater Warband rules. As a BTB Warband developer it was up to said developers to fully clarrify all potential problem spots in the warbands and rules, even if they released a short explanation FAQ style booklet to go in side by side with BTB to explain all the minute rules that people would find. The Developers did not. Hence the thread above.

Ram Rock Ed First



EDIT: This post is an acrimonious, rambling, obnoxious diatribe & totally in violation of the conditions of your reinstatement to the Forum. I would suggest you consider what you wish to say before posting, moderate the length & content, & CAREFULLY READ THE FORUM RULES.

DeafNala


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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Mon 18 May 2009 - 5:32

Figgy wrote:
Just gonna throw in my two cents.

It gets to be powergaming when you can rehire people over and over, and word doesn't spread about your ogre warband eating everyone they hire.

Optimization would be taking all your advantages into play - such as taking advantage of your high Str score or something simple like that.

Your battery works like a charm rules-wise, but alas, if this were Mordheim (or any other part of the world) I would say that after the first two hires, people quit allowing you to hire them. It would be silly to go and get eaten by ogres! Word would spread pretty fast in the mercenary rings! Razz

now THAT IS an interesting addition as a rule! If they eat ANY hired swords they cannot hire any hired sword for the entire campaign cheers
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PostSubject: Re: On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)   Today at 8:36

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On Powergaming (Ogre Maneaters the most Broken Warband)
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