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Svenn
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PostSubject: Base to Base contact   Mon 11 May 2009 - 8:52

Something came up in our battle this week that I'm not sure how to handle. The rules state that you must be in base to base contact with someone to be in combat with them from what I remember. The rules also state that you can not take out a knocked down/stunned warrior if you are in combat with someone else. Here's the scenario, we'll use Undead and Beastman, since that's what happened here:

Beastman Unit A is stunned by Undead unit Z. Beastman Unit A is side by side (base contact) with a friendly unit, Beastman Unit B. Undead Unit Y is side by side (base contact) with Undead Unit Z. Beastman Unit B and Undead Unit Y are in Base to base contact. It looks like this:

AB
ZY

Since Unit A is stunned, can Unit Z then take out Unit A on his turn or will Unit B be able to defend?

What about the same situation with this formation?

B
A
Z

Basically, how do you handle multiple close combat? Could Unit B attack Unit Z in either of these scenarios? What happens when you have a cluster of 5 or 6 guys in combat, all base to base with someone. Can units only attack the units that their bases are touching, or can they attack anyone in that group?
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Mon 11 May 2009 - 9:22

Svenn wrote:
The rules state that you must be in base to base contact with someone to be in combat with them from what I remember. The rules also state that you can not take out a knocked down/stunned warrior if you are in combat with someone else.

Yep. So far, so good.

Svenn wrote:
Beastman Unit A is stunned by Undead unit Z. Beastman Unit A is side by side (base contact) with a friendly unit, Beastman Unit B. Undead Unit Y is side by side (base contact) with Undead Unit Z. Beastman Unit B and Undead Unit Y are in Base to base contact. It looks like this:

AB
ZY

Since Unit A is stunned, can Unit Z then take out Unit A on his turn or will Unit B be able to defend?

If Y can strike at A, then Z can obviously also strike at B (I am assuming all models are standing on 20/25mm square bases - if not, and the sizes vary, then your diagram may not be sufficient).

So this seems pretty simple to me. If you define 'touching corners' as base contact, which you obviously do as otherwise Y couldn't strike at A, then why should Z NOT have to strike at B?

Now whether touching corners are sufficient to count as base-to-base contact is another question.

Svenn wrote:
What about the same situation with this formation?

B
A
Z

Basically, how do you handle multiple close combat? Could Unit B attack Unit Z here?

Of course not. Never. They are obviously not in base contact.

Svenn wrote:
What happens when you have a cluster of 5 or 6 guys in combat, all base to base with someone. Can units only attack the units that their bases are touching, or can they attack anyone in that group?

Sure. That's why it's called 'base contact' and not 'contact with someone who contacts someone who contacts someone who...' Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Mon 11 May 2009 - 9:39

Well, here's where part of where the confusion comes in. The rules always state that you must move 1" apart when leaving combat. So, doesn't this mean that if you are within 1" that you would be in combat with someone? so if there was a small (less than 1" gap), shouldn't those guys be in combat?

Also, when you charge someone, what are the requirements for aligning the bases? Using directions... if I charge someone from the north, can I put him in base to base on the south side of the model? What about the East/West sides? Do I have to line up the base so that as much of the bases are touching as possible or can I set them up so that they are close to the corner?
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Mon 11 May 2009 - 9:52

The 1" gap is just to make it really clear that the models are not in combat.

You can charge an enemy from any side as long as you move the attacker by the most direct route. This normally means the side facing the attacker, but it can mean any side if there are already friendly models in combat with them, or scenery in the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Mon 11 May 2009 - 9:54

WarbossKurgan wrote:
The 1" gap is just to make it really clear that the models are not in combat.

You can charge an enemy from any side as long as you move the attacker by the most direct route. This normally means the side facing the attacker, but it can mean any side if there are already friendly models in combat with them, or scenery in the way.

So, if I have units A, B, and C fighting unit Z as such:

_A
BZC

And Unit D charges from the north end (where Unit A is) he can wrap around so that it looks like:

_A
BZC
_D

So the other question is do you have to match up bases as best you can? Can I set it up so that the bases are only partially in contact to fit more guys around?
Like this, for example?
AB
CZD
EF
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Tue 12 May 2009 - 12:42

On a side note, hopefully not to make it overly confusing:

they could get attacked if the beastman used the pike weapon found in the lustria human mercs. they allow an attack from 3" away!

Here's the rule:

Pike (12 gcs Rare 7)
The Pike is a special weapon in Lustria Cities
of Gold. It is somewhat longer than a spear
and is weighted so that it can be wielded
efficiently between the trees and underbrush
that is so common in the jungle.
A model wielding a pike can strike
first in the first round of combat even
when charged by a model wielding a
spear. After the initial round of
combat resolve strikes in Initiative
order. The model can change to
normal hand-to-hand weapons after
the initial round.
Due to its considerable length, a
model that has a pike can attack
another model from up to 3" away
without being a part of a hand-tohand
melee.
Pikes have to be used with both
hands therefore only 1 attack is
allowed. The model also cannot take
advantage of a shield or buckler
while using a pike.
Only man-sized or larger creatures
can use pikes. Skaven,
Skinks, Halflings, etc,
cannot.
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Wed 13 May 2009 - 9:34

Svenn wrote:
WarbossKurgan wrote:
The 1" gap is just to make it really clear that the models are not in combat.

You can charge an enemy from any side as long as you move the attacker by the most direct route. This normally means the side facing the attacker, but it can mean any side if there are already friendly models in combat with them, or scenery in the way.

So, if I have units A, B, and C fighting unit Z as such:

_A
BZC

And Unit D charges from the north end (where Unit A is) he can wrap around so that it looks like:

_A
BZC
_D

Assuming your group is not counting as being in base to base contact with corners. This, or something similar was brought up on the SG boards a few days back, basically whilst there isn't an official ruling, going off of WHFB as a further expansion to larger combat in teh same setting (though different games) GW's official ruling for units is corners count, so whilst there isn't an official ruling for Mordheim as such, alot of people count corner to corner touching as being in base to base contact. In your diagram above, if you do NOT count corners as touching then that's fine as it would be the most direct path so lonng as there was room around the sides to get behind the enemy and movement to do so.

Quote :
So the other question is do you have to match up bases as best you can? Can I set it up so that the bases are only partially in contact to fit more guys around?
Like this, for example?
AB
CZD
EF

Now, going off of your diagram here, assuming they are all same sized bases so Z isn't a large target, then comjparing it to your previous diagram only C B D & F could hit though if it it was arranged as such:

.AB
CZD
.EF

Then all your models would fit and be in contact (this is a Base to base does not count with corner to corner)

If you are playing Corner to Corner counts as Base to Base then youc an get 8 guys in against someone of a same sized base:

ABH
CZD
EFG

Cheers mate,

Ram.
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Wed 13 May 2009 - 9:37

Ram Rock Ed First wrote:

Now, going off of your diagram here, assuming they are all same sized bases so Z isn't a large target, then comjparing it to your previous diagram only C B D & F could hit though if it it was arranged as such:

.AB
CZD
.EF

Then all your models would fit and be in contact (this is a Base to base does not count with corner to corner)

If you are playing Corner to Corner counts as Base to Base then youc an get 8 guys in against someone of a same sized base:

ABH
CZD
EFG

Cheers mate,

Ram.

So, in the case of...

.AB
CZD
.EF

...this is allowed? I was thinking it might make sense to require people to place models with as much of the bases touching as possible, so the first charged would be in full base to base contact and now allow two bases to share the same side of a base of the same size.
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Wed 13 May 2009 - 10:04

Again, nothing specific stated in the rules. IF your group decides to say they have to fit full side to full side then yeah fine, but what abouyt a situation where there is a chunk of terrain in the way and only part of the enemy's base is chargeable:

___A
.....B

Assuming A can only reach B's front arc and not the sides would you be allowed to charge at all?

Again group preference, I'd play it as yes, so long as any part of the base is in B-2-B then it is cool. Thus you'd be allowed to position guys to get 2 in B-2-B.

Ram.
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Wed 13 May 2009 - 10:50

I would think it would be "As much of the bases must be touching as possible." So, if there's only a part of the base sticking out from behind terrain, then sure, you can charge and go base to base with that section. However, you can't charge a guy out in the open and just barely touch the base so you cna fit more guys...
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Wed 13 May 2009 - 11:44

It depends how much movement you have and the angle to reach the enemy in this case. If you are especially good at judging distances you could pull off the move and still get in B-2-B partially. But if you are going corners count then the issue is a moot point.
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PostSubject: Re: Base to Base contact   Today at 21:55

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