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 Ideas for a Sumo henchman

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Rabu
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PostSubject: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 8:50

Orcs have trolls, Kislev have Bears, there are Hired Sword Ogres and so on, why shouldn't the Japanese (Nippon) have a Sumo?

I was wondering if anyone has some ideas on how to make a good and balanced Sumo, to be used in the same way as Trolls and such.
In other word a tough 0-1, 150-200gc Henchman..

My main concern are what characteristics too use, should he be more like and Ogre, or a Troll?
Atleast he shouldn't have more movement then a regular human, and not the best of Initiatives.

The other thing is Special Rules.
Should he have Large as pretty much all the other henchmens in this cost range has, or should he be more of Orc sized seeing he's just a fat human after all.
How about something like a Bull Charge rule or similar? When his large bulk of fat starts moving its hard to stop him?

I'd appreciate ideas and thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 8:54

Hm, I think a sumo would rather be in between an ordinary human and an ogre... with, say S4 T4, the bull charge you mentioned and 5gc upkeep for the food he eats (or have him count as two fighters when selling wyrdstone). However, this would not be too uber, so perhaps you could give him a second special rule... can't think of any, though. The only thing is that he wouldn't wear armour and not fight with weapons, so I'd say not giving him penalty when fighting with his hands and perhaps a natural 6+ AS.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 9:09

Oh I have a special rule Razz :

Diving death

when making a diving charge, the Sumo will not strike the opponent, but rather just fall down on the poor victim squashing him like a bug to the floor take a toughness test, when failed... first overcome the sheer terror of being stuck halfway between his nipples or buttocks Razz and then take a S4/S5 hit?
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 9:13

So it would be best if i mounted the model on a 25mm base gave him S4
and T4, movement 4 i assume to fit in with other humans.

How about wounds? 2? 3?

I really like the idea of a food upkeep at 5gc, he's gotta eat after
all. And i have to agree on the no armor, no weapons part. Would look a
bit odd with a Sumo in full battlearmor.

Haha, the diving death was really nice. Though at an Initiative at say somewhere between 2-4 it might not be the most frequently used rule, but oh so amusing when you manage to land it on an opponent. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 9:27

Hey, nice idea, I like the "Diving death" Razz
3 Wounds (if you want him more than 100Gc), I thought about E. Honda (from Street Fighter video game) who has some nice Special Attacks, like the fast hands :


It could be great to double the attacks in the first turn of combat (if he has just 2 A in his profile).
Or perhaps we could find a rule with chinese food lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 9:34

Yes! Diving death! I suppose it's a great rule just for the fun of having him squash someone once in a while, haha Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 9:45

3 wounds it is, as i want him to be around 125ish gc.

I guess the Diving Death is just too much fun to leave out. The joy of telling your opponent that his warband leader has just been crushed under huge amounts of fat is just to good to be true. A keeper ! Very Happy

When i saw your reference to E.Honda Lanyssa Ryssyll i just could help myself googling about his special moves, like the fast hands or Hundred Hand Slap as its called are a really good idea. How about naming the Diving death E.Honda style aswell (Fuji Drop).

I've also been browsing around in the updated rulebook and found a couple of fun special skills for ideas.

Like Ostlanders Bull Rush, with a hit roll +1 and no wound needed to just knock your enemy off his feet.
As for the 6+ AS Eliazar talked about, why not name it Layers of Fat like the Halfling skill.
Or something like Pit Fighters Body Slam.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 9:52

I like this idea a lot!

the 5gc food upkeep is perfect.

My thoughts (just ideas, not meant to all be included):

6+ AS: Due to his many layers of fat and muscle, the sumo can take an inhuman amount of punishment. He may not wear armour though. EDIT: Oops, sorry - I see this was already covered.

As big as three men: Because of his massive size (large size or not) the sumo is not intimidated by groups of skinny warriors and as such does not suffer from all alone tests.

Slam: with a mighty heave, the sumo slams a meaty foot into the ground, causing the road to heave around him. This skill acts as an attack. All warriors within 1" of the sumo must pass an Initiative test are suffer a -1 to all rolls for the rest of the turn, due to being shaken. Any warrior within 1" of a ledge of drop, must treat this as a successful attack (despite not wounded) - IE, they must also test after their first roll to see if they fall off the edge (with a -1 penalty if their first roll fails).

Anyway, just some thoughts

EDIT: Hmm, just thought of something else. What about giving him a low Initiative, as mentioned, but with a ability he can use say once per game that doubles his Initiative. To reflect that while massive and fat, he can still (once in a while) drum up one big burst of energy. Perhaps after using this ability, he suffers a further -1 to M or I for a turn?
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 10:17

Both the all alone test and Slam are great ideas, especially Slam as a defencive ability when you get multicharged.

One thing that keeps me wondering is the Initiative, as i've heard that sumo are really quite agile despite their size. So how about deciding on a Initiative number for the Sumo? Should it be really slow like at 2 Initiative or a more normal human 3 or 4?

The ability to focus up a burst of energy and doubling the Initiative for one round sounds great though if you want to pull off a Diving Death attack.

About the Diving Death, should it be S4 or S5? Or maybe modify the Injury Roll making it more likely to be a Stunned or Out of Action roll.
I find it hard to live to tell the tale when Body Slammed by a 140kg (308lbs) chunk of fat. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 10:26

Well, what if you went with that idea? Initiative of 3 base. Can, once per game, double it to 6 for a turn. Then, for the remainder of the game, it drops to 2?

Something like that perhaps? Might be too much book keeping for some though, I don't know.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 11:07

Haha! Can't wait to see how this turns out! If you keep the Diving Death rule, you should give him a climbing penalty. Not just 'cos he's fat (fat, fat, fat, fat!), but 'cos he'd just spend the whole game climbing and jumping.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 11:16

MY DUMB QUESTION IF THE DAY: wouldn't be easier just to take an Ogre as the Sumo type? There are a number of suitable minis, including GW's Ninja Ogre & this guy from Reaper:

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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 11:20

Actually, the whole idea was born when i saw this model from Hasslefree Miniatures.

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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 11:40

So here's a preliminary edition of the Sumo.

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 0 4 4 3 3 2 7

Motivation for WS4 is the fact that Sumo train their entire life to master the fighting style.

Special rules: (Examples not all of them will be included)

Layers of Fat: The Sumo has built up a massive bulk of fat and muscle over the years and therefore recieve a basic armor save of 6+. He may however not equip any type of armor.

Diving Death: When making a diving charge, the Sumo will not
strike the opponent, but rather just fall down on the poor victim
squashing him like a bug to the ground. The opponent is forced to take a toughness test, .... (work on what happens)

Energy Burst: The Sumo can channel all of his energy into one massive blow. Therefore, once every battle he may double his Initiative for one turn. In Addition, after the energy burst he gains a permanent -1 Initative for the rest of the battle.

Sumo Headbutt: When he charges, the Sumo may attempt to knock down his opponent rather than making his normal attacks. Roll to hit once with a +1 to hit modifier, though no ‘to wound’ roll is necessary. Instead, if the warrior hits with this attack, the opposing model is Knocked Down.

As large as three men:
Because of his massive size
the sumo is not intimidated by groups of skinny warriors and as such
does not suffer from all alone tests.

Sumo Slam: With a mighty heave, the sumo slams a meaty foot into the ground, causing the road to heave around him. This skill acts as an attack. All warriors within 1" of the sumo must pass
an Initiative test are suffer a -1 to all rolls for the rest of the turn, due to being shaken. Any warrior within 1" of a ledge of drop, must treat this as a successful attack (despite not wounded) - IE, they must also test after their first roll to see if they fall off the edge
(with a -1 penalty if their first roll fails).

Chankonabe: (The actual name of the traditional Sumo lunch) [Insert good wording] The Sumo need a 5gc upkeep for food each battle.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 11:43

VERY COOL MINI! Yes I can see where coming up with some special Rule would be in order. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 12:44

I'm not sure on the headbutt... as it is rather powerfull as a skill, and, what are you going to do when warriors wear helmets? are you going to allow armour saves? or will youtreat it as an attack from a club? - just normal rolls for hitting, and wounding, but with the normal saves and results?
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 12:48

I have no idea what to do about the Headbutt, it was just a clean rip off of the Ostlander skill Bull Rush. As a type of Bull Charge discussed in the beginning of the thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 13:13

You could change Head Butt to Trample?

The Sumo charges his maximum charge distance in a straight line. Any warrior directly along that line suffers a single S3 hit... Or is knocked down... or something... Does not work on Large targets.

Or, each warrior in line makes an Initiative test to dodge the trample. Failure results in them being knocked down.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 13:29

I like the idea, it could be really usefull in different situations to clean out a narrow street. The idea of a Initiative test or maybe a Toughness test would perhaps balance out the skill a bit yes.

Edit: I'd really like to see these skills on a Sumo as i think they would fit in perfectly with the type of character.
Layers of Fat, Energy Burst, Diving Death, As Large as Three men, Chankonabe (the food upkeep), aswell as the Tramble skill.
However the Diving Death needs some tweeking, what should happen when you manage to hit the poor target with the power bomb?
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 14:14

Hmm, not sure. I do think that, in the event the Sumo misses, he should suffer greatly then normal falling damage. That way you can balance the strength of the belly flop with the possibility of hurting yourself. Would be kind of funny to see a Sumo dive off a building and land directly in front of the target splattering on the streets. Smile

If he's not Large size, then perhaps you could also say it can't be used on Large targets (or at a reduced strength, IE S5 vs human-sized, S3 vs Large).
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 14:35

Assuming he still has to make an Initiative test with I3, I6 with the once a battle Energy Focus to make the diving charge, chances are good that he could still fail and hit the ground head first.
Eventhough he wont be Large sized compared to Ogres and what not, i still feel he could hurt a Large sized model with his bulk, not in the same way as a human sized ofcourse. That's why i really like the idea of S5 vs Humansized and S3 vs Large. Making the attack still worth trying against Large sized.

So to sum things up, Diving Death is an addition to Diving Charge.
Where you have to pass the regular initiative test for each set of floor of the building you're jumping from. Then the model you have targeted needs to take a toughness test, if failed the model suffers the consequenses.

What if you manage the initiative tests for jumping, and he saves the toughness test? Should the Sumo just land next to him or is it considered a normal diving charge?

Edit: What would the price end up on for a troll/ogre/bear henchmen like this? 140-180? More?
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 18:45

Wow. A lot of great ideas here. I'll toss in my $.02.

First off, it's really hard to throw in a price tag when all the rules are still subject to change. I'd aim for a slightly more finalized model before you guess at pricing. If it ends up too expensive, you can make cutbacks then.

First off, do you want it to be a human, or something more than a human? In comparing him to trolls, bears, and ogres, you seem to want something more than human. But it sounds like from the progression of the thread, he is going to be a real human, with human max stats, and a 25mm base (not 40mm & large target). Is this correct? He's basically going to be starting with max stats for a human. As a henchman I guess this wouldn't matter much, just he wouldn't be able to receive a str promotion.

I think the Headbutt is fine as written. You're giving up 2 str 4 attacks in order to have a good chance at knocking down the opponent. Those attacks would usually have a decent chance at stunning the opponent or taking it OOA. The knocked down opponent will be able to stand up and fight (striking last) in the next round of combat, so you can't take advantage of the knocking down unless you have multiple models fighting the enemy model.

In my personal opinion, henchmen should not have more than 2 model-specific rules during the game. Special henchmen (ogres, trolls, and the like) could maybe have up to 3. This is to keep things reasonably streamlined for gameplay. As an example, the troll has one such rule: the vomit attack (fear, stupidity, regeneration, and no exp are all typical rules, and Always Hungry takes effect outside of the game). Your last summary of the sumo has 4. I'd highly recommend chosing your favorite 2, possibly 3, and removing the rest.

An alternative is to make the character a powerful hired sword. Then he could start with a couple skills, and also have his own skill list he could learn from if he gets the relevent skills increase. This would allow him to keep the human statline, but "go over it" via skills such as Mighty Blow or perhaps sumo-specific skills.

______________________________________________________________________________________
To be honest, my idea of a sumo is someone who would be terrible in a traditional weapons fight. He'd have horrendous agility, and would probably suffer several sword, mace, etc. wounds (actual wounds, not morheim wounds) before reaching his opponent. However, after reaching his opponent, he'd be able to completely subdue his foe through the use of his training and superior mass and muscle. This type of sumo would be more like:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 0 4 4 2 2 1 7

No weapons or armor (maybe tattoos?). Receives no penalty for fighting unarmed. Immune to fear and all-alone tests.

Protective fat: The strength of all attacks against the sumo are reduced by 1.

Grapple: Instead of making his normal attacks, the sumo may grapple his opponent. Roll to hit with an additional +1 modifier (-1 modifier for large targets). If successful, the enemy model is pinned. A pinned model is automatically hit in combat and may not make any attacks. In addition, the pinned model suffers an automatic strength 2 hit at the end of each combat phase (from the sumo's crushing weight). The model remains pinned until it is taken OOA or until the sumo opts to release the model at the start of any close combat phase. A model will strike last in the turn it is released.

1 more fun rule: Diving Death, etc.

Again, this is my interpretation of a more "realistic" sumo. He provides fabulous utility, is a tough-as-nails human, and performs as a giant wrestler probably would in combat. It sounds like you're going for an e-honda (awesome fighter) type sumo, which should be loads of fun. In his fluff I might mention that he's blessed by the gods or something though, cause he's coming across as a bit super-human (which is completely fine in the world of morheim).
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Sat 25 Apr 2009 - 2:42

I have to admit i was looking for a E.Honda style Sumo seeing as alot of the warbands i will be facing are either Beastmen and Orcs with Minotaurs/Trolls or a full Ogre warband. Having something that could actually stand up against Ogres would be of great help.

Correct me if i'm wrong, a Hired Sword is a henchman but rolls on the advancement and injury tables for a Hero?

So basicly, say he would be a Nippon only Hired Sword instead of a Henchmen, that way he could have more skills then a henchman, aswell as get more skills through advances. Starting out with maybe 3-4 and gaining the additional skills through advances. I like it.

The upkeep part could still count as a way to feed him i assume, like "either you feed him for **gc or pay him so he can buy the food himself".

With a little fluff i'm sure he could be a bit super human like E.Honda seeing as how much gods there are in the Shinto religion. Like Hachiman for example, the God of War.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Sat 25 Apr 2009 - 4:17

Rabu wrote:
Correct me if i'm wrong, a Hired Sword is a henchman but rolls on the advancement and injury tables for a Hero?

This is correct.

You should check out the Hired Swords section of the Border Town Burning setting. There is a Bone Goliath in there which is exactly the type of model I believe you are trying to create. It is specific to a single warband, and it doesn't even have upkeep, cause it is basically a special type of henchman. It costs 225 gold plus extra to hire though, so it's truly a monstrosity. I think similarly, you could have the sumo as a hired sword with a very cheap upkeep (5 gold mentioned above), but have it have a higher hire cost than a typical HS of the same strength. If you're aiming for a hire cost of 120-160, check out the bear from the Kislev warband and the ogre from the Ostlander warband. Both are official, and both are in that price range.

I am now tempted to model a sumo in either the Headbutt or the Diving Death positions.
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PostSubject: Re: Ideas for a Sumo henchman   Sat 25 Apr 2009 - 14:22

I checked the Bone Goliath and it sure is one crazy monster, a bit over the top crazy imo.

I think that we can agree on the fact that the Sumo would be more fitted being a Hired Sword rather then a Henchmen.
Here's a updated version of where he's at so far.

M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 0 4 4 3 3 2 7

Weapons/Armor: None, other then his body. Recieves no penalty for fighting barehanded.

Special Rules:

the Defensive onces

Protective Fat: All attacks made against the Sumo are at -1 Strength

As Large as Three Men: Because of his massive size, the Sumo are is
not intimidated by groups of skinny warriors and as such does not
suffer from All alone tests. In Addition, the Sumo are immune to fear.

the Offencive onces

Grapple: Instead of making his
normal attacks, the sumo may grapple his opponent. Roll to hit with an additional +1 modifier (-1 modifier for large targets). If successful, the enemy model is pinned. A pinned model is automatically hit in combat and may not make any attacks. In addition, the pinned model suffers an automatic strength 2 hit at the end of each combat phase (from the sumo's crushing weight). The model remains pinned until it is taken OOA or until the sumo opts to release the model at the start of any close combat phase. A model will strike last in the turn it is
released.

Sumo Rush: The Sumo can make a full ranged charge move in a straight line, passing through any models in the way. All models hit by the unstopable Sumo must take a Toughness test or be Knocked Down. In Addition, if the Sumo end up in base to base contact at the end of this move he counts as have charged.

Aside from these 4 rules he can take skills from Combat, Strength and the special Sumo skill list when advancing.

In the special Sumo list there will be the other skills mentioned in this thread such as:

Diving Death

Energy Focus

Slam

Headbutt

How are things starting to look? Don't forget that he will have a food upkeep aswell aside from his hire cost.
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