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gewaltatron
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PostSubject: Maximal Increases   Wed 22 Apr 2009 - 14:16

Hi there,

one question: Do Mutations or Nurgle Blessings (e.g. Bloated Foulness) or Skills (like Mighty Blow) that increase characteristics count against the racial maximum?

For skills i am pretty sure they dont but right?

regards,
Gewaltatron
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Wed 22 Apr 2009 - 17:52

they dont
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Wed 22 Apr 2009 - 23:38

They don't? I would say they do.. That for example the CoC warbands can't have t5 heroes with 5 wounds.. Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Wed 22 Apr 2009 - 23:52

I think they don't. Why? There has been the issue with serious injuries cianty clarified a while ago:

In case you suffer a serious injury and lose a stat (i.e. movement is reduced by 1), you still count as having M4,but with a -1 penalty, meaning that you can't negate the effect of an injury by rolling a stat increase. So, I think that skills and mutations give you extra stats above your normal increases, and the racial maximum only covers the maximum profil you can achieve by rolling for ordinary stat increases.
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Lanyssa Ryssyll
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 2:00

For sure they don't ! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 2:28

Hi there,

thank you all so far.

@Eliazar : nice example.

considering the skills i am pretty sure, since for example i noticed (blame me) that mighty blow of course only works in close combat, so this allows a increase above the maximum in cc.

@Lanyssa: talkin about the skills or mutations?

Considering the mutations or in my personal example the Bloated Foulness, I think if these increases (and one DECREASE) would be restricted by the maximums this blessing would only be good for a couple of games, because upgrading your hero he would (somehow) reach this stats anyway , maybe except for that -1 movement penalty. So I think this kind of blessings/mutations would have no longtime value!

Does anyone have something official? Or how do you think/handle it?

best regards,
gtotheetothewtotheatotheltothet-atron

sorry for the bold letters
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 2:44

I'm with Asp, Eliazar, and Lanyssa on this one. The stat changes do not count towards the racial maximums.

The official response was on the SG website before it was shut down. Now it doesn't exist in print anywhere.

If you wait around a couple days, you can get a response from Da Bank, which is about as official as you can get. You might get a response from him sooner over at the new SG forums.

MLP: I don't see why CoC shouldn't be allowed a T5, W5, M3 hero if they get lucky rolling advancements. That hero has a base cost of 135 gold and a minimum 3 advances. I can get a dwarf or orc for 25 gold and have it at T6(in combat) and 3 wounds with just 4 advancements. For 110 gold, I'd allow him one fewer advancement and 2 more possible wounds, taking into account he's 1 toughness less in combat and misses out on M4(orc) or lots of special skills(dwarf).
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 6:53

the thing is, COC is a poorly designed at over powered warband
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 9:44

Unfortunately, it is allowed. We have debated this one for quite some time and we left it how it is. This doesn't mean it won't be worded better.

My preference is that you are allowed to go only up +1 past your MAX with a skill.

There are opportunities (few) that may allow you to go over your MAX.

I would remind all to keep in mind to not go "overboard" by allowing such things and to keep the game fair and balanced in your gaming groups.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 9:55

Asp wrote:
the thing is, COC is a poorly designed at over powered warband

Which has pretty much nothing to do with the question. Thank you. Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 12:18

Identity wrote:
MLP: I don't see why CoC shouldn't be allowed a T5, W5, M3 hero if they get lucky rolling advancements. That hero has a base cost of 135 gold and a minimum 3 advances. I can get a dwarf or orc for 25 gold and have it at T6(in combat) and 3 wounds with just 4 advancements. For 110 gold, I'd allow him one fewer advancement and 2 more possible wounds, taking into account he's 1 toughness less in combat and misses out on M4(orc) or lots of special skills(dwarf).

I totally agree with that analysis, I played just one time this "tank" tainted one, and it was very difficult to use and not so funny scratch

In the debate, I talked about the skills AND the mutations Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 13:00

Da Bank wrote:
My preference is that you are allowed to go only up +1 past your MAX with a skill.

Why? I mean there are really few opportunities to increase your max profile and this warband doesn't look like a reason to introduce such a rule. I mean, we are talking of humans here. Pretty much every other race has better stats.

Anyways, I guess it would be better to start a new topic for those who wish to discuss the "unbalances" of the CoC since this has nothing (or very little) to do with the initial question.

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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 13:25

Because it makes sense to put a CAP on skills affecting max stats.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 13:35

I guess it does. But since there are so few in Mordheim I don't think it's necessary.

What is there? Mighty Blow (+1S) and Resilience which even only indirectly boosts yourToughness. Can't think of much more right now. A few mutations maybe (+1 M) but most of them provide special attacks. Drugs but they're very expensive.

Especially when discussing this in the context of a human warband (Carnival = humans) with the lowest max profile of the major races I don't think this necessary. Maybe I haven't played with or against the relevant warbands for this but in my group we never had overpowered Heroes who were too strong because of a multitude of stat increasing effects. Maybe you can give a specific example for an easy abuse of max stats? Especially since this is only relevant very late in a campaign when you have reached your max stats the whole issue isn't that important because by then your enemy has had enough time to take advantage of their own strengths (which may not be stat increases but something else).

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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 13:53

And even if they are increased so much, just avoid the "tanks". It's the same with Kislevite bears... charge them with everything you got and you are doomed, avoid them or sacrifice a few henchies and everything is well.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 13:56

Also it's when you have to reconsider you armament and might have to switch to two-hand weapons... that's what I do when certain enemy models reach high Touchness and Resilience.

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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 15:04

cianty wrote:
Asp wrote:
the thing is, COC is a poorly designed at over powered warband

Which has pretty much nothing to do with the question. Thank you. Evil or Very Mad

But it has to do with the discussion, mind you.

People brought up the (poor) sensibility of a design that allows for such imbalanced increases, hence it was part of the discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 15:16

I don't mean to come off attacking you, Asp, but dammit it all - some days I just feel like you need a rubber stamp that says 'Mordheim Sucks!' and just use that for your posts.

I see where Cianty came from, as I feel your comment was just thrown in there quickly to point out how we all play a dumb, broken, out-dated game and must be stupid for even playing CoC.

Am I wrong? Why do you play Mordheim other then to find its multitude of apparent faults?
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 15:21

Not this argument again... at least not here.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 15:25

well then, I'd be happy to answer you, Ethlorien

if I seem eager to point out the bumps of the existing rules it is because I think they sorely need a re-balance and a general re-write to clean them up. now this doesn't mean that my rules should be used by everyone, they are just an example of how it could be done. - eigther way, the rules, as they exist, have gaping flaws as evidenced by the ton of rules questions that every newbie has. and i think this is unfortunate because I love mordheim and I really want to see it grow beyond its current following, which, as we can all agree is rather small and obscure.

now, with regards to this thread, other users pointed out the 'bump' that is the stackability of CoC blessings, skills et al. - that makes the question of power level and design, which I adressed, relevant to the discussion. so if a moderator wanted to crack down on someone for straying from the topic - although I don't see why he should in this case - then my post would be the wrong place to start.

furthermore, if people interpret my comment as non-constructive bashing, they seem to be overlooking the fact that here we have a veteran player casually telling a (presumably) newbie-player that CoC are overpowered and could use a design tweak; - knowledge that newbie players would be hard pressed to discern by themselves. - put yourself in the shoes of the generic newbie player: would you rather know that a given warband is overpowered before or after you use them in a campaign?

other than that, I agree with Eliazar, no need to repeat this discussion.


Last edited by Asp on Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 15:35; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : added another paragraph)
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 15:57

Ethlorien has summed up my feelings and I know I shouldn't add anything to that so I won't.

So with regards to increasing stats beyond the max profile: where is this really becoming a problem? I haven't seen any warband that can abuse the few possibilities that exist to any significant extent. I haven't played CoC yet (despite purchasing the models last year) but since they are humans and thus have their rather low profiles I can't see them being totally overpowered because of that. I do have been thinking about various starting warbands for CoC and the blessings are really expensive - sufficiently expensive. No?

Are there any other examples?

Asp, you are of course welcome to state your thoughts too.

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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Thu 23 Apr 2009 - 18:12

It seems natural to me that a human blessed with mutations by nurgle would have a higher max stats profile than an ordinary human. Specifically, nurgle units are tough as nails. Is this not perfectly reflected in the mutations offered?

I've played against CoC tainteds and possessed with 3 (powerful) mutations on each model, and it hasn't been unbalanced in our campaigns. It's similar to starting with a rat ogre. You invest a lot in a single model at the start, which causes your warband to be weak in other areas. The CoC hero mentioned above cost roughly 150 gold equipped. That's roughly 5 henchmen, who should easily be able to take it down. Or you could get 3 models with crossbows, which could even more easily take it down, with it's paltry movement 3. It's the same cost as an ogre, which should be able to butcher it... You see the trend? You're getting what you pay for.

Later in the game, the model could reach 5 toughness and 5 wounds (although this is unlikely). As has been pointed out, by that time, other warbands should have plenty of arsenal to deal with it. If not, it is easily avoided with a few sacrificial henchmen. As far as starting warbands go: mercs and WH can slaughter it with crossbows, undead hero ghouls or the vamp can face it in combat, sigmarite warhammers - enough said, my skaven heroes could easily take it down (or run circles around it for fun), possessed will counter with S6, T6, 4W... I mean, the poor thing can't even get strength skills. I personally think that multiple mutations are overpriced Razz

If any mutated beast is to be feared, it's still the original bad boy: the possessed. I faced one with 18" charge, S6&7 attacks, T5 resilient, with 4 attacks, step aside, dodge... However, even that monstrosity could be competed with that late in a campaign.

Asp - I completely understand where you're coming from, but you do come across as overly critical of the game, espcially when you're addressing new players.
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PostSubject: Re: Maximal Increases   Fri 24 Apr 2009 - 1:00

Thanks for taking the time to write down your experience, Identity. This is how I had expected it. I have been trying to making the best possible starting warband with CoC and of course you want to have as many blessings on one model as possible in the beginning. But they are so well priced that effectively you can get only one in the beginning as otherwise you'd be harming your warband by having to few others models. I know I probably sound like a broken record but considering that we are talking of a human warband here, which, unlike Mercenaries, is not a bunch of jacks-of-all-trades, but focused close combat, they have to have better stats than normal humans. Otherwise the concept of a human close combat warband is not feasable (ok, I did try to do it via skills with the Battle Monks).

So with the topic of this thread being maximum stats through skills and abilities, what other warbands/combinations are there that seem broken? I can't think of any.. (and that was the last time I asked that question. promised.)

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