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Tagnator
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PostSubject: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 11:50

Hey Lads!

I have a question, who plays with the WYSIWYG rule and why.. Because I am starting and like the rule but if you convert a lot on them its hard to remake them for the rule...

So please tell me what you think and why Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 11:54

You have to use it more or less.
And that's the point:
Use it but allow the one or the other exection.
That's the best you can do.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 11:59

ok great because sometimes Light Armour looks like Non-Armour and stuff, and like now, I am working on a Witch Hunter wich take me 3 hours yet and still far from finished :S
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 12:03

It's a stupid rule in my opinion. Always clarify what your models are equipped with at the beginning of each game and answer your opponent's questions regarding weapons at any time and you are fine. That's how we do it. Man, sometimes even the races of what the model represents and what it is supposed to be do not even match. Have fun is the golden rule and we rarely break that one. That's what counts.

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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 12:15

I play WYSIWYG, and I think it's the better way. Of course, if someone tells me at the beginning of the game that their Ogre HS is armed with two swords instead of the double-handed axe he appears with, I'm fine with that. It's when the exceptions start becoming the rule that I find it inconvinient. I don't want to be charged by a zealot with a sword and shield and be told that he actually is equipped with a Steel-whip and an axe...

Exceptions are fine, but overall the model should be equiped as-seen. Of course, helmets and armour are a little more difficult, so we don't worry too much about those; if you tell me you have a 5+AS because he's wearing Heavy Armour or he gets a 4+save vs. Stunned because of a non-apparant helmet, then so be it.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 14:18

I play with wysiwyg, up to a certain limit. i don't care about helmets & armour and i have no problem if some weapons are not represented. This is the way I play, because i have one opponent who doesn't care about appearance as long as it looks cool. He's using non-gw models of female dancers as skaven, none has any armour whatsoever and a few have weapons that match, others don't or the model has no weapons at all. and to top it all of: no names. He's the only one who has any clue at all what each model represents, sometimes he swaps the models after a game(don't ask me why).

This is so frustrating, i once shot at a henchman and thought it was the leader because he swapped the models Sad
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 14:20

Ah cool, that sounds good because Dwarfs are nice 2 and I almost never saw anny without helmet or armour Smile Hey you play Witch Hunters 2 Very Happy Post them in the gallery if you can because I really like to see them Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 14:50

I don't use it in my campaign...but as cianty said always clarify what other models are using...i have been tricked once and i promise you it wont happen again Razz
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 14:59

I will post pictures as soon as i get the cable of my camera from the attic, it's in one of the many many boxes. But don't get too excited because i paint my minis AFTER the campaign is done, so that i can rebuild them when equipment changes. Paint is for winners only Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 22:24

Yorik wrote:
He's using non-gw models of female dancers as skaven, none has any armour whatsoever and a few have weapons that match

lol!
As hilariously geeky as that is, (I can't stop laughing) That would frustrate me to no end. haha, I'm glad I don't play with him. lol

Normally, I follow the GW rules... knives and slings and armor can be hidden under clothing, but doubled bladed axes, bows, briefcase nukes, etc all must be represented on the model.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 7:59

Ashton wrote:

Normally, I follow the GW rules... knives and slings and armor can be hidden under clothing, but doubled bladed axes, bows, briefcase nukes, etc all must be represented on the model.

that sounds intresting, because with that rule we can life Very Happy Verry nice Very Happy

and thanks for all your reactions! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 3:47

I think it would be difficult to play WYSIWYG all of the time, as according to the rulebook each warrior can be armed with "up to two close combat weapons (in addition to his free dagger), up to two different missile weapons and any armour chosen from the appropriate list." I suppose you could also have them carry a shield. Heroes can also be equipped with a bunch of special equipment that may or may not be modelled on the miniature. It would be ludicrous to model all (or most of that) onto a figure, as you'd wind up with something that looks like a pile of weapons with a face.

I think that as long as you make a reasonable effort to show what a model is equipped with, that is good enough. An idea to help avoid confusion about which figure is carrying certain equipment is to label the bottom of the base with a number or letter that corresponds to a number or letter on the character's roster entry. That way if a dispute occurs as to who is carrying what or who has access to which spell, you can look at the base and compare it to that figure's equipment list.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 4:16

I've experimented with writing the statline on the 3 sides of the base not covered with the name, this does work with color-coding but it's a pain in the ass when your stats change, and it's as fast as looking up on the roster, so i gave it up.

My leader has has right now: Sword, lance, brace of duelling pistols, Handgun, gromril armour, helmet, buckler, warhorse, barding, rabbit's foot, cathayan silk clothes, lucky charm, hook & rope, wyrdstone pendulum, holy water, hammer of witches and some stuff i don't remember right now.
The model depicts: Sword, Lance, Buckler, Armour, Brace of Pistols, Warhorse, Barding, lucky charm(one of the SM seals) and the hammer of witches. He looks like he's ready to face a warband on his own(and i guss he could).
There's simply no more space to add anything, i even tried to glue a handgun to the saddle but that looked rather stupid.

Need to make a picture.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 6:24

Brahm Tazoul wrote:
Of course, if someone tells me at the beginning of the game that their Ogre HS is armed with two swords instead of the double-handed axe he appears with, I'm fine with that. It's when the exceptions start becoming the rule that I find it inconvinient. I don't want to be charged by a zealot with a sword and shield and be told that he actually is equipped with a Steel-whip and an axe...

Exceptions are fine, but overall the model should be equiped as-seen.
Cheers

Amen.

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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 7:56

Yorik wrote:
I've experimented with writing the statline on the 3 sides of the base not covered with the name, this does work with color-coding but it's a pain in the ass when your stats change, and it's as fast as looking up on the roster, so i gave it up.

My leader has has right now: Sword, lance, brace of duelling pistols, Handgun, gromril armour, helmet, buckler, warhorse, barding, rabbit's foot, cathayan silk clothes, lucky charm, hook & rope, wyrdstone pendulum, holy water, hammer of witches and some stuff i don't remember right now.
The model depicts: Sword, Lance, Buckler, Armour, Brace of Pistols, Warhorse, Barding, lucky charm(one of the SM seals) and the hammer of witches. He looks like he's ready to face a warband on his own(and i guss he could).
There's simply no more space to add anything, i even tried to glue a handgun to the saddle but that looked rather stupid.

Need to make a picture.

nice so you play with the Blazing Sadles rules Very Happy ? that sounds good! I wanna use it 2 because Mounts rock I think..
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 8 Jun 2009 - 9:30

I generally ask before taking shots or declare charges, what his heroes are Razz haha kinda funny

"hey man, what is your leader? That one? ok! and champs? Those? thanks mate, i'll now declare a charge on your leader and shoot your champs" Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 8 Jun 2009 - 10:53

Well the WYSIWYG-rule is quite convenient since it allows you to keep track of what everyone has. I'm usually not that picky on armor, since those are so hard to alternate and convert – though weapons I try to be strict with (sure if a free dagger isn't represented or a sling I'm quite fine, but i really don't like when you play that a model with two small knives has a double handed sword).
There is of course both fairness and unfairness in this rule, the fairness is in that everyone plays within the same frame, and the unfairness comes with that people with more money tend to have more options.
So the balance is rather essential.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 8 Jun 2009 - 15:38

I'm glad this topic has come up again -it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

I understand that WYSIWYG is a good thing, especially if you are playing someone you don't know. But I'm a big fan of the "Counts As..." rule which seems like the exact oposite of WYSIWYG! I think I would rather play against a well painted warband with all the wrong weapons than a unpainted one with all the right weapons, equipment and armour (and having said that, I would rather play a Marienburger warband made of unpainted High Elf models than not play a game at all!)

We play a fairly loose interpriation of WYSIWYG at the Mill: An Orc has to be an Orc model (not a Goblin, Squig or Troll!) but I won't throw you out if you want to use a human as an Orc today because you haven't got a model to represent a new warband member... But next week I'd like to see at least an Orc model, painted ot not!

Weapons are even more vague: a one-handed weapon can be any other one handed weapon and a missile weapon can be any other missile weapon (a model with no missile weapon at all can be said to be armed with one for that matter, I'm not that bothered!). Two handed weapons can be any two handed weapon and don't even have to be held in two hands, but do I think they should look big and impressive at least...

After all there are so many things that you cannot tell about a warrior by looking at the model (and I think this is the clincher for me). Skills, magic spells, stats, special rules, injuries: none of these things are represented by modelling. Even some equipment like Luck Charms are only rarely represented. I don't see the point of getting hung up over the other stuff to be honest.


Last edited by WarbossKurgan on Tue 9 Jun 2009 - 8:22; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 8 Jun 2009 - 16:19

Well I understand why one doesn't want the lack of a couple of models – for me though, models with no upper body, unpainted models, just kills the feeling of a game; I find it to be less fun. I don't want to be no fascist around it, its just slightly off putting, especially when one self have laid hours on getting your models neat and colored.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 8 Jun 2009 - 19:08

I used to be a big fan of this but over time I just don't have the time or resources to keep converting my models or that I even want to cut them as I really like the way they look.

As noted by others I also do not want to find out that a "halfing" is really an Ogre or something crazy like that.

I believe (just my personal opinion) that during deployment you should tell your opponent who are heroes and what they have for weapons, I am not talking about telling them skills and characteristic but this is "Joe, he is a champion, it looks like he has a double handed weapon but it is really a sword and dagger." You know , something simple.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Mon 8 Jun 2009 - 19:26

Why not just create a graphic roster sheet with a clear photo and relevant information of each model to give to your opponents?

That way your opponent is clear on your warband and you've immunized yourself from any question of your integrity.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Tue 9 Jun 2009 - 0:14

Could be funny to hand over a little leaflet with your "notorious" warband Smile though you'd have to update it every game...

I normally play in a rather free wysiwyg setting as well, though for me it's been rather easy, as all my witch hunters have large cloaks and robes, by which even a doublehanded hammer might be concealed! Smile I use to give them the options they are already wearing though... so if a model has a pistol and 2 daggers by his side and a sword in hand... he will have that on my roster as well...


Recently I started on a new all plastic mercenary warband (save for the fine looking tin ogres from Rackham Smile - pics up soon) and I am magnetising all of their joints and 'weapon slots' like the back, the belt, the shield arm etc. so I can fully play wysiwyg for a long time with only making minor additions...
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Tue 9 Jun 2009 - 0:40

I tend to steer my warbands equipment from the models as well - it's somewhat more challenging ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Tue 9 Jun 2009 - 5:54

wysywyg has it's obvious benefits but as others have stated the time and/or expensive of converting you models (possibly on a per battle basis) can be tedious to some. In my previous campaigns we posted our roster sheets, or a copy of them on a small cork board so that each participant could clearly see what we has equipped. Usually after the first confrontation it's easy to remember what each model has.
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PostSubject: Re: What you see is what you get.   Tue 9 Jun 2009 - 6:59

It's nice to keep as close as possible, but no, it's not a requirement for me. As long as the majority have correct equipment, it's simple to remember. Also it helps if it is somewhat uniform, as "those four crossbows are actually just bows", instead of "well, TWO of those crossbows are bows, but one of them is a handgun and the other is a sling".

Keep it within reasonable limits, and I'm ok with it. And yes, being clear with pointing out who is equipped with what at the beginning, and remind your opponent now and then ("before moving out in the street, you do remember that my guy here in the tower has a bow that I haven't modelled on yet, right?") keeps the game fair.
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