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darthblud
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PostSubject: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 6:42

Hi

I have a doubt with pistols. First turn you shoot with S4 etc etc.
But second turn, third, etc? Can you use it in HtH? Do you use it as a club, dagger, fist?

We are reading FAQ from GW, mordheimer, etc. And several people think that you can use it only the 1st turn and other people think that 1st turn you have the special atack and after that it givs just +1A.

Any help guys?
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Hamsterjoe
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 7:08

You use two pistols as two weapons, clubs would be my thought. Just with the special S4 hit in the first turn. From then on you use the Strenght of the user as if you had 2 clubs. Or just 2 weapons with no special rules.
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Lanyssa Ryssyll
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 7:21

It's a very good question, and I have no answer.
I use to play with my bro' as they can only be used in the first turn of the fight, because they are shooting weapons with just a special rule in the first turn. But in Amsterdam, we played them as weapons with no special rules on the other turns, and it was great ! Very Happy
So, I don't know exactly how to answer you, but I'm very interested on what we'll find in this discussion Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 7:25

The FAQ (page 15) says you switch out pistols for another weapon in the 2nd round of combat, just like a lance.
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darthblud
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 8:27

Yeah, we also read that.

Code:
Q: Can weapons be swapped during a combat?
A: No, with the exceptions of pistols and lances which may be exchanged for a different weapon after their first turn special attack.

What we thought is, why do they say may instead of must. Does it mean that if you don't swap weapons you can still use the pistol as HtH weapon?

Sorry for being annoying but I just want to see it clearly Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 8:36

you can use it as a HtH weapon, just not as a shooty one, so, you lose the strenght of the weapon, and in stead use your own... you may houserule it as a club, as they usually have a very nice clubshaped handle, but otherwise it's just a normal handweapon.

(the pistol get's flipped around in the users hands to knock someone over the head with - very usefull!)

If you're packing better weapons than that, you may switch to those. - hammer, axe, massive doublehanded weapon etc.
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catferret
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 10:56

There is no rule in the book for using a pistol as a hand weapon in later rounds. The use of "may" is simply a spot of bad wording, or to cover groups who do house rule the weapon counting as something else.

If your group wish to house rule it then fair enough. Warhammer Fantasy at the time allowed it so I would certainly not object to any players asking for that rule in my group. I would count it as just a generic hand weapon using the bludgeoning criticals chart rather than a full club though, unless the extra gold was paid to upgrade it.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 13:20

I'd say no to using pistols as close combat weapons after shooting in first turn as well - no doubt they can do a decent hit or two, but the finer mechanics or the pistol would be broken in no time against parries and/or armor Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 14:29

MyLittlePwny wrote:
I'd say no to using pistols as close combat weapons after shooting in first turn as well - no doubt they can do a decent hit or two, but the finer mechanics or the pistol would be broken in no time against parries and/or armor Smile

Actually, there is a historical precedent for using the pistol as a club. Blackpowder pistols almost all had a weighted butt for beating opponent's over the head. The weapons were inaccurate beyond about 20yards which meant there would be no time to reload. If the opponent was very close there would be not even be time to draw a sword therefore the pistolier would fall back to bludgeoning his opponent with the heavy weighted butt of the pistol.

The mechanism itself was more robust than people think but, yes, it could get damaged by being parried at times. Given the choice of having a sword stabbed through my face or a replaceable mechanism breaking, I'll choose the latter.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 18:40

...plus upkeep costs like food ammo and repairs are already factored into the running of the warband.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 19:05

I'd be more worried about the pistol hurting me than vice versa. I wouldn't want to grab the barrel of a old-style firearm immediately after it was discharged.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 1 Apr 2009 - 19:12

Who said anything about holding the barrel? No need to hold the pistol by the wrong end to clobber folk with the butt. You risk damage to the gun by wielding it in an unintended way.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 1:03

actually, I still have an old riders pistol at home (which was used during the late 1600s - which was a lot like the empire in mordheimtimes... save for the wicked races that is... oh, and the part where magic and fish rain from the sky Razz) a rather large device, seriously heavy, and a poor aim, but there is hardly any mechanism, it's just a trigger, embedded in tough wood, and a cock connected to the exterior, that'd be the only part that could be damaged...

The handle is heavy, sturdy and reinforced, with a small knob at the bottom, perfectly designed for bashing in skulls or piercing armour (helmets) it was designed to deliver one shot while closing in, then flipping it around, and using it as a club - as were almost all of the pistols at the time.

Therefore I'd deem it only logic to use the pistol as such... A handgun is a different thing, but pistols were designed for this use.

Furthermore, the gun is well crafted, decoratively engraved, and a sight to behold (you gotta love the pure art of devices of death, as used in those days) sadly it's been damaged a bit by time... I'm thinking of having it restored someday, that turns out to be rather expensive though)
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darthblud
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 2:11

So another one of those rules from GW that nobody can be 100% sure. Seems that using it as a club could match reality... but reality and GW usually don't fit, I will have to talk with guys at my club.

Thanks Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 4:07

Well, I'll reiterate my original post. It's not an ambiguous rule, it just isn't a rule. If it doesn't appear in the Mordheim book so we can only assume the designers had reason not to include it as the rule existed in WFB at the time so would likely have been included if it was deemed necessary.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 14:56

Page 15 of the official rules review? I'd say that's pretty straightforward. You can shoot in the 1st turn then can switch out. Since they don't give it a rule of its own, its just a hand weapon. Though there really isn't such a thing in Mordheim, every weapon is unique in some way.

Of course you can always house rule it. I would argue against it's gaining the full qualities of the club, its just standing in as one.
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PostSubject: Pistols   Thu 2 Apr 2009 - 15:52

Well, the reason why you only can shoot in the first turn is quite simple: You can't reload it in close combat... not even if your a pistolier. I say house rule it as a club is quite nice - though a pistol isn't as big as a club, and can not be swung in the same manner so I probably go with an extra rule giving it either -1S or +1 Defender Save
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Fri 3 Apr 2009 - 0:50

actually... the model pistols are quite small... but the original weapons were rather large and clumsy, thus resembling clubs rather closely..
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Fri 3 Apr 2009 - 10:03

Per the letter of the rule you have to switch it out, and are able to do so too.
In reality it would probably be able to use a pistol rather well as a club. Although a short ranged one, it was used as such a one when it was made.
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