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PostSubject: Athel Loren Campaign   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 10:04

This is an old project which I (along with others such as Ethlorien, Styro and many more) worked on at the old SG forums. When the forums abruptly ended the ideas were shelved.

However, I want to bring back the idea of Athel Loren, and want to develop the rules more.

The ideas were (in order of priority):
To make a setting more dependant on close range combat than any other setting. (perhaps apart from catacombs).
To make a setting where quality = quantity. (many players complain that it is better to get a lot of warriors than to equip them properly).
To make a proper setting for bretonnia and wood elves.
To make a setting less-dependant on loads of buildings, but instead incorporating loads of forest terrain.

The close combat idea was simply in the scenarios and the warbands, the warbands on the first brainstorm were:
Bretonnian knights.
Wood elves - Divided into dryads and elves.
Beastmen.
Bretonnian rogues.
Daemons.
Chaos dwarves??

Daemons and chaos Dwarves were removed later though. and the bretonnian rogues were changes into the bowmen of bergerac.

Our scenarios should incorporate changing paths and dense terrain that cannot be shot through with any skill, which could move at random in some scenarios.

The quality = quantity should be enforced in the post-game changes, in the beginning I wanted to make a rarity on hiring, and I still do. Another option was to only allow recruitment through some scenarios. I wanted to make the feel that when you entered Athel Loren, your band was truly alone.

The last two are rather self-explaining.

So the question is, are there anyone out there out who would like helping us with making this setting? We need playtesters, rules lawyers and ideas, so anyone is welcome.

Also, if you have any ideas you would like to incorporate in this setting throw them at us, and we can discuss them.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 10:25

*Rules Lawyer signing up.*

We need to get those Daemons up and running. Even if they would be limited to 10 models :p Smile

Ii think it far more likely that Orcs and Goblins would venture into AL than Chaos Dwarfs.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 15:37

I completely forgot about the idea for savage orcs, which were also among the ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 16:41

I'd be very interested in helping out with this.

My first impulse is that with a lot of forest terrain, the warbands will be incredibly hard to balance. Wood elves will be very strong with their forest movement. Beastmen will be very strong if shooting is as nerfed as you suggest, and dryads will have the best of both bands. The brettonians, if reliant at all upon their warhorses, will be mostly useless as they are unable to use the wooded terrain.

Ideas for additional warbands that would fit the setting:
Dwarves. You wouldn't have to make a new warband necessarily. Just use the Nemesis Crown Dwarf Rangers Warband.
Undead. Once again, the default or BTB warbands would work fine.
Wildwood. I just read the bit about the corrupted forest spirits, and it would be neat to include that in this setting if possible. There probably aren't enough models for its own warband, but maybe the beastmen warband could take a couple corrupted dryads if it has a spellcaster.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 18:02

Actually normal dwarves would be more likely to show up, wouldn't they? I think there's a whole section in the wood elf history where the dwarves try to chop down Athel Loren and royally piss off the wood elves. Greedy stunties after woody goodies, ya know?

And definitely orcs, they don't even have to be savage.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 20:56

I am slightly mystified by the choice of Athel Loren as a setting for an emphasis on close range combat. From the first you are fighting the stereotype of the forest dweller whether they be man or elf. What is the main weapon of Robin Hood? Legolas? What is the main weapon of Athel Loren? If you wish to limit shooting why do it in the one place known for shooting?

The Chaos Wastes. Now there is a place known for Daemons and Chaos Dwarfs and close combat. Definitely a neglected place of the Mordheim universe as well. I'm just saying. For close range combat settings I recommend Lustria--jungle, crappy weather, temple catacombs; Khemri--sand storms, catacombs, darkness; Karak Eight Peaks--underground all the time.

I'm definitely excited about an Athel Loren campaign setting, however your first priority while laudable is out of place in the setting.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 21:32

Well, actually, 'Savage Orcs' and "Slayer Cult' were two new warbands that master seemed to forget. (The rules for the latter I posted on this forum a month or so ago.)

To me, I liked the idea of a set theme: and, aside from the Bretonnians, the general theme seemed to be tattoos/warpaint. With Wardancers, Trollslayers, Savage Orcs, Forest Goblins, and Beastmen, the idea of savage, berserker fighting was a fascinating mental image.

Nemesis Crown: I haven't taken a deep look at all of the elements in NC yet, but I do know that we let someone play Nuln Gunnery School play in our Sartosa campaign, and it's so powerful it's insane. I'll need a close look at warband before I recommened them into the campaign. (Dwarf Rangers would probably be fine, and I'm thinking that the Horned Hunters seem fitting.) Also, some of the NC scenarios are MORE than perfect for Athel Loren (heck, an entire scen. is based on Spites playing tricks on people.)

Shooting vs. Melee: To be honest, I think if we keep the access to Blackpowder and Xbows down to a minimum, the shooting game will not be too overpowering. Even elf bows and hunting arrows are meek compared to the Hochland rifle or the S4 of Tilean Marksmen.

Honours: Hmm. It could work. That would let us have about 7 honors, really. Could work swell.

Dryads: Dryads, as their own warband, were super fast AND tough. They REALLY cost in the hand-to-hand battle, and couldn't really use equipment, though.
Outlaws: I'm thinking that, instead of writing a whole new warband list for the Bowmen of Bergerac, to instead use the Outlaw warband, and give the following changes:
>Instead of a Cleric, the warband has a Maiden, who knows 'Bretonnian' prayers (see Bretonnian warband.) She is no doubt a woman of high birth, lured to the woods by promise of adventure or love.
>Give to the Poor: The warband always sells Valuables at one warband size larger than it's actual size. However, whenever hiring henchmen to go into existing groups, you roll 3D6 for your experience pool instead of 2D6, and pay only 1Gc per experience point instead of 2gc (as grateful villagers are always eager to join in!)

Undead: We also originally talked about a new Undead warband, but to be honest, there are MORE than enough Undead warbands out there. Plus, the idea of Dire Wolves running through the Loren woods looks neat in my head.


Lost Models: Since we last talked, Master, here's my thought on the models getting lost-
We split the setting into Locales, like the Relics crusade. Each locale has it's own Trading Chart, as well as 'Native Warbands'. Any model attempting to buy new warriors that are not native to that locale must roll on the 'Lost' chart (see below)

POSSIBLE LOCALES
1. Elven Court - Natives: Elves, Dryads. Items: Elfy things. Terrain: Forest.
2. Black Forest - Natives: Beastmen, Orcs, Goblins. Items: Poisons, Madcap, etc. Terrain: Forest.
3. OUtlaw Camp - Bowmen of Bergerac, Horned Hunters. Items: Tarot Cards, Human items. Terrain: Village (forest & houses)
4. Bretonnian Town - Natives: Bretonnian. Items: Armor
5. The Barrows - Natives: Undead. Items: May purchase none, but roll to find items (mostly common, but chance of finding a lesser 'magical artefact'.) Terrain: Forest, Ruins, hills.
6. Don't think we NEED a 6th locale, but if we want to round it out, we could have the Grey Mountains- Natives: Mercenaries, Dwarves. Items: Dwarf axes, gromril.

LOST CHART
1 - The warriors you purchased are completely lost. Roll again on the 'Lost Chart' after the next game.
2-3 - The warriors are delayed, and show up at the end of next game.
4 - The Warriors are slightly delayed, but have a chance of entering in the next battle. (If you roll this result on the Lost chart, you must buy items for them immediately, or they will show up with daggers only.) During the next game, at the start of each of your turns, roll a D6: on a Natural 6, the warriors show up. They appear at a random table edge, and will be deployed anywhere you choose within 4" of the edge, and 10" away from an enemy model. They may not move, shoot, or use magic the turn they are deployed. If the game ends before the warriors appear, they immediately appear to you after the game ends.
5 - The warrior shows up promptly, and is added to your roster.
6 - The warrior shows up immediately, carrying an extra weapon he found (or stole) along the way. He carries an extra Commmon weapon of your choice, which may be added to your inventory or used by the warrior. The item chosen cannot cost more than 15gc, must be chosen from the Warrior's equipment list, and cannot be sold until after next game.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 21:32

Well, actually, 'Savage Orcs' and "Slayer Cult' were two new warbands that master seemed to forget. (The rules for the latter I posted on this forum a month or so ago.)

To me, I liked the idea of a set theme: and, aside from the Bretonnians, the general theme seemed to be tattoos/warpaint. With Wardancers, Trollslayers, Savage Orcs, Forest Goblins, and Beastmen, the idea of savage, berserker fighting was a fascinating mental image.

Nemesis Crown: I haven't taken a deep look at all of the elements in NC yet, but I do know that we let someone play Nuln Gunnery School play in our Sartosa campaign, and it's so powerful it's insane. I'll need a close look at warband before I recommened them into the campaign. (Dwarf Rangers would probably be fine, and I'm thinking that the Horned Hunters seem fitting.) Also, some of the NC scenarios are MORE than perfect for Athel Loren (heck, an entire scen. is based on Spites playing tricks on people.)

Shooting vs. Melee: To be honest, I think if we keep the access to Blackpowder and Xbows down to a minimum, the shooting game will not be too overpowering. Even elf bows and hunting arrows are meek compared to the Hochland rifle or the S4 of Tilean Marksmen.

Honours: Hmm. It could work. That would let us have about 7 honors, really. Could work swell.

Dryads: Dryads, as their own warband, were super fast AND tough. They REALLY cost in the hand-to-hand battle, and couldn't really use equipment, though.
Outlaws: I'm thinking that, instead of writing a whole new warband list for the Bowmen of Bergerac, to instead use the Outlaw warband, and give the following changes:
>Instead of a Cleric, the warband has a Maiden, who knows 'Bretonnian' prayers (see Bretonnian warband.) She is no doubt a woman of high birth, lured to the woods by promise of adventure or love.
>Give to the Poor: The warband always sells Valuables at one warband size larger than it's actual size. However, whenever hiring henchmen to go into existing groups, you roll 3D6 for your experience pool instead of 2D6, and pay only 1Gc per experience point instead of 2gc (as grateful villagers are always eager to join in!)

Undead: We also originally talked about a new Undead warband, but to be honest, there are MORE than enough Undead warbands out there. Plus, the idea of Dire Wolves running through the Loren woods looks neat in my head.


Lost Models: Since we last talked, Master, here's my thought on the models getting lost-
We split the setting into Locales, like the Relics crusade. Each locale has it's own Trading Chart, as well as 'Native Warbands'. Any model attempting to buy new warriors that are not native to that locale must roll on the 'Lost' chart (see below)

POSSIBLE LOCALES
1. Elven Court - Natives: Elves, Dryads. Items: Elfy things. Terrain: Forest.
2. Black Forest - Natives: Beastmen, Orcs, Goblins. Items: Poisons, Madcap, etc. Terrain: Forest.
3. OUtlaw Camp - Bowmen of Bergerac, Horned Hunters. Items: Tarot Cards, Human items. Terrain: Village (forest & houses)
4. Bretonnian Town - Natives: Bretonnian. Items: Armor
5. The Barrows - Natives: Undead. Items: May purchase none, but roll to find items (mostly common, but chance of finding a lesser 'magical artefact'.) Terrain: Forest, Ruins, hills.
6. Don't think we NEED a 6th locale, but if we want to round it out, we could have the Grey Mountains- Natives: Mercenaries, Dwarves. Items: Dwarf axes, gromril.

LOST CHART
1 - The warriors you purchased are completely lost. Roll again on the 'Lost Chart' after the next game.
2-3 - The warriors are delayed, and show up at the end of next game.
4 - The Warriors are slightly delayed, but have a chance of entering in the next battle. (If you roll this result on the Lost chart, you must buy items for them immediately, or they will show up with daggers only.) During the next game, at the start of each of your turns, roll a D6: on a Natural 6, the warriors show up. They appear at a random table edge, and will be deployed anywhere you choose within 4" of the edge, and 10" away from an enemy model. They may not move, shoot, or use magic the turn they are deployed. If the game ends before the warriors appear, they immediately appear to you after the game ends.
5 - The warrior shows up promptly, and is added to your roster.
6 - The warrior shows up immediately, carrying an extra weapon he found (or stole) along the way. He carries an extra Commmon weapon of your choice, which may be added to your inventory or used by the warrior. The item chosen cannot cost more than 15gc, must be chosen from the Warrior's equipment list, and cannot be sold until after next game.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 6:11

The dwarf rangers seems to be slightly weaker than the dwarf treasure hunters band, mainly due to their lack of the extra shard income.

The Nuln Gunnery School doesn't look to be any more powerful than a Reiklanders warband, as long as you haven't houseruled any improvements to blackpowder weapons. They have a half dozen rules which basically result in handguns being the same as crossbows.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 7:39

Von Kurst wrote:
I am slightly mystified by the choice of Athel Loren as a setting for an emphasis on close range combat. From the first you are fighting the stereotype of the forest dweller whether they be man or elf. What is the main weapon of Robin Hood? Legolas? What is the main weapon of Athel Loren? If you wish to limit shooting why do it in the one place known for shooting?

The Chaos Wastes. Now there is a place known for Daemons and Chaos Dwarfs and close combat. Definitely a neglected place of the Mordheim universe as well. I'm just saying. For close range combat settings I recommend Lustria--jungle, crappy weather, temple catacombs; Khemri--sand storms, catacombs, darkness; Karak Eight Peaks--underground all the time.

I'm definitely excited about an Athel Loren campaign setting, however your first priority while laudable is out of place in the setting.

Yes Legolas and Robin Hood, although none of them exist in warhammer.

The warhammer forests seem to be places were the close combat warriors flourish, and especially Athel Loren, Wood elves are actually the only ones that can be classed as shooty in these forest, however they also have quite a strong close-combat theme.

To answer your question:
I chose Athel Loren, because it gave me the ability to create a bretonnian warband (close combat), a beastman warband (close combat), an orc warband (close combat), and close-combat oriented wood elves, thus giving me a setting where close combat would flourish.

@Styro:
The savage orcs and slayer cults I had completely forgotten, they fit nicely into the setting of close combat, and both also fit rather well to Athel Loren.

I like the idea of locale, but I don't know if it fits? I like the idea that when you enter Athel Loren you don't get to exit... It could be done though.

The tattoos also fit well with the close combat setting, and the bretonnians have a kind of tattoos through their blessings.

On the undead & corrupted dryads, well what if we combined these two? Dead trees and dead people? fits well to me... An angry branchwraith that knows necromancy, her two saplings, and two evil humans. For henchmen they can have dead dryads, skeletons and some sort of darksouls?

Another thing I remembered is the idea of acorns, nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to bring it up again, should we replace the wyrdstones with these acorns, which give different bonuses, for example some of them provide food to your warband (sell better for the next d3 games), while other provide you with protection from magic and so on and so forth, or should we just use regular wyrdstones?

Daemons... I so want to do this warband, but it will be invariably hard, both balancing and converting it.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 16:39

Master wrote:
On the undead & corrupted dryads, well what if we combined these two? Dead trees and dead people? fits well to me... An angry branchwraith that knows necromancy, her two saplings, and two evil humans. For henchmen they can have dead dryads, skeletons and some sort of darksouls?
I love this idea, but it'll take a little twisting to make the fluff work. The dryads were originally corrupted by beastmen taint, but perhaps a powerful necromancer snuck into the wildwood and through his powerful magics was able to bring some dryads out of their imprisonment there. After their release, the necromancer began teaching them his art with the hopes of amassing a legion of forest spirits. To make a long story short, they betrayed him and now roam the forests corrupting and reanimating all they encounter.

I think such a band would be incredible fun to convert and paint (and play!).

Master wrote:
Another thing I remembered is the idea of acorns, nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to bring it up again, should we replace the wyrdstones with these acorns, which give different bonuses, for example some of them provide food to your warband (sell better for the next d3 games), while other provide you with protection from magic and so on and so forth, or should we just use regular wyrdstones?
I agree that wyrdstones wouldn't fit the setting, but I'm a bit hesitant about the acorns. You don't want to make the post-game too much more complicated, especially if you include locales, etc. Perhaps just rename wyrdstone shards to runestones (little ones, not boulder-stized ones).

Master wrote:
Daemons... I so want to do this warband, but it will be invariably hard, both balancing and converting it.
Even though I've never played chaos, I've longed for a demon warband. However, it would be incredibly hard to justify one fluffwise (not to mention balance it ruleswise). I don't picture demons moving about in small groups outside the northern wastes. I'm sure someone could conjure something up given enough motivation though.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Fri 27 Mar 2009 - 0:02

"Yes Legolas and Robin Hood, although none of them exist in warhammer."

Oh my bad. In Warhammer language--Bertrand the Brigand and the Bowmen of Bergerac, including Hugo le Petit and Gui le Grous. I thought that since you include the Bowmen in your setting that you would be aware of their literary origin.

As for Legolas he appeared in the Citadel Journal (along with selected members of the Fellowship) as Legless a hapless Wood Elf who aides the Halflings of the Moot in time of need. Legolas also appears as himself in WD #53 in a Warhammer battle report. (Back when GW was young and figures from any company could be seen in WD) Legolas is BS 10! (WD 53, p. 14)



Warhammer is endlessly derivative most anything that can be stolen/adapted probably has.

Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Fri 27 Mar 2009 - 7:07

LOL, Master you might want to double check before you say no to something that Von Kursts posts as Von Kurst is correct. It is a known thing that --Bertrand the Brigand and the Bowmen of Bergerac, including Hugo le Petit and Gui le Grous is the Warhammer substitution for Robin Hood.

Von Kurst has been involved with Warhammer Fantasy for a myriad of years.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Fri 27 Mar 2009 - 16:41

I admit I'm wrong sorry for that, all I'm saying is that I don't think much of the warhammer fluff that hasn't been stolen portrays the forest as a home for bowmen, to my knowledge of the current fluff, Alith Anar is supposed to be one of the best bowmen, and he is a high elves.

IMO there is no real connection in WHFB between the forest and the bow (apart from the fact that it is made of wood). The main creatures of the woods are the beastmen, yet they are not using bows.

Also, I actually have no quarrel with bow-armed models in Mordheim, to me the bow is weak compared to the crossbow and therefore it will not have as easy breaking the game, if not fielded in overwhelming numbers, mainly, when a bow is fielded, it still compels you to move into position, and get more tactic out of the game, in contradiction to the crossbow which is actually rewards warriors that don't move.
The idea of placing it all in Athel Loren was that it both offered a lot of terrain making ranged combat hard, but also that it would prevent high-tech weapons from being used.
However, that being said, I'm a guy that sticks by my principles, ranged combat shouldn't be precedent in this setting.
Also, I like the idea of the thrill of the hunt from Athel Loren, and to me hunting in a fantasy world is not about gunning something down, but rather getting up close and personal.

But actually the main inspiration for Athel Loren was the man vs nature theme, of the valiant bretonnian knights (and their more or less willing peasants) striding into the forest for glory, while the denizens of the forest try to repel them.

Oh and on the bowmen:
The idea of including bowmen of Bergerac was mainly styros idea, and as styro sometimes pull such names from anywhere, I just though he had invented them himself, as I've only ever seen a vague reference to them somewhere else and forgot where it was, I thought it might be something shakespearian.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Fri 27 Mar 2009 - 18:16

Master wrote:
The ideas were (in order of priority):
To make a setting more dependant on close range combat than any other setting. (perhaps apart from catacombs).
To make a setting where quality = quantity. (many players complain that it is better to get a lot of warriors than to equip them properly).
To make a proper setting for bretonnia and wood elves.
To make a setting less-dependant on loads of buildings, but instead incorporating loads of forest terrain.

...

The quality = quantity should be enforced in the post-game changes, in the beginning I wanted to make a rarity on hiring, and I still do. Another option was to only allow recruitment through some scenarios. I wanted to make the feel that when you entered Athel Loren, your band was truly alone.
I love the idea of your warband feeling alone. Suddenly you need to look after your cannonfodder henchmen because who knows when you will get a chance to find some more people crazy adventurous enough to join your band.

Identity wrote:
The dwarf rangers seems to be slightly weaker than the dwarf treasure hunters band, mainly due to their lack of the extra shard income.
Dwarf Rangers get all of the special rules for Dwarf Treasure Hunters in addition to their own special rules. Therefore they *do* get the extra shard of income.

Dwarf Rangers would be good in this setting (if we want dwarves) since they are a lot more close combat oriented than Dwarf Treasure Hunters.

Master wrote:
On the undead & corrupted dryads, well what if we combined these two? Dead trees and dead people? fits well to me... An angry branchwraith that knows necromancy, her two saplings, and two evil humans. For henchmen they can have dead dryads, skeletons and some sort of darksouls?

Another thing I remembered is the idea of acorns, nothing is set in stone, but I wanted to bring it up again, should we replace the wyrdstones with these acorns, which give different bonuses, for example some of them provide food to your warband (sell better for the next d3 games), while other provide you with protection from magic and so on and so forth, or should we just use regular wyrdstones?
The normal Undead warband with dire wolves running through the forest would be cool as Styro mentioned but a 'dead trees and dead people' warband would be cool too.

Using something other than wyrdstone would definitely be good to add even more distinct flavour to this setting.

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Outlaws: I'm thinking that, instead of writing a whole new warband list for the Bowmen of Bergerac, to instead use the Outlaw warband, and give the following changes:
>Instead of a Cleric, the warband has a Maiden, who knows 'Bretonnian' prayers (see Bretonnian warband.) She is no doubt a woman of high birth, lured to the woods by promise of adventure or love.
>Give to the Poor: The warband always sells Valuables at one warband size larger than it's actual size. However, whenever hiring henchmen to go into existing groups, you roll 3D6 for your experience pool instead of 2D6, and pay only 1Gc per experience point instead of 2gc (as grateful villagers are always eager to join in!)
Sad I was looking forward to a fresh 'Robin Hood' themed warband. One issue with the vanilla Outlaws of Stirwood Forest warband is that it ends up being closed combat focused due to bows having maximum S3.

Da Bank wrote:
LOL, Master you might want to double check before you say no to something that Von Kursts posts as Von Kurst is correct. It is a known thing that --Bertrand the Brigand and the Bowmen of Bergerac, including Hugo le Petit and Gui le Grous is the Warhammer substitution for Robin Hood.
I wouldn't mind having some sort of 'Robin Hood' warband that is ranged combat focused because just one warband wouldn't change the close combat idea but *would* add some extra spice and require a change in strategy sometimes.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Fri 27 Mar 2009 - 20:01

Thank you.

I'm going to say that we are talking about apples and oranges here. Athel Loren, which in my reading of the Warhammer fluff is the ancient home of the Wood Elves, in yours seems to be somewhere else. The Great Forest in the Empire for example, or that stronghold of chaos and the Beastmen, the Drakwald.

As long as the bow has a prominent place in the Wood Elf arsenal I am content in a querulous sort of way.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 16:15

We had something else in mind other than wyrdstone... I can't remember what the cool name was I had for it (I think I wrote it down, but I'm on a borrowed computer right now), but the idea was that the influence of chaos had created a canerous growth within Athel Loren itself. Mutated trees wore growing and spreading at an alarming rate, overwhelming both the forest itself, and encroaching upon the borderlands. The poisonous spores were killing villagers, and the parasytic roots were leaving fields and rivers barren.

(In retrospect, I can see this also affected Dryads and mages in a psychological way, too. If they are indeed tapped into the forest's consciousness, it's like a sudden bought of madness is creeping in; a splintered voice, murderous and simgle-minded in it's desires, and screaming at it's own agonizing, tortued form.)


Well, I've been thinking about the Undead-Dryads, and here's my proposal on it: we don't even need to include in the fluff 'a necromancer coming into the forest.' The undead book describes necromancy as being only a small step away for any mage delving to deep, or asking too many questions from the ethereal voices. I can easily see a dryad accidentally stepping into it, without outside instruction.

CORRUPT DRYADS
Dryads, in their natural state, are solitary creatures, content with the company of their groves and the occasional secuded passerby. But each dryad is physically bonded with all of it's sister dryads... and when all of the immediate family of a dryad is wiped out or destroyed, the effect can be devastating on a dryad's mind. Likewise, if a dryad has been in contact with the touch of chaos, the forest may shut the infected dryad out, breaking the constant flow and feedback that the dryad has known it's whole life. In a desperate to replace the silence and solitude with company, the Dryad will obsessively build a new family, a new collective mind, going so far as to accidentaly probe into the dark arts and conjure up the shadows of dryad kin long gone. These rickety bands will travel through destitute corners of Loren. Any traveler the branchwraith encounters can expect a warm and loving invitation to join the dryad's new family... or will be rended limb from limb by the nymph's bitter rage.

DRYAD EQUIPMENT
On the old SG forum, Master and I spearheaded a Dryad list. The idea behind the dryads is that they bought equipment at the start, which had similar effect as weapons, but was permanently grafted to their limbs. I think, with the mage, they could switch weapons between games (the old limbs were destroyed, replaced with the new ones.)

1 BRANCHWRAITH - cost?
Stats: Not sure. Probably S3, T4, A1.
Equipment: Dryad Equipment
Spells: May cast from the Undead Spell List. Any spell that affects Dire Wolves may affect 'Deadwood.'

0-1 (0-2?) FELLKIN - 90gc
Undead Treekin
Stats: about the same as a Possessed
Equipment: Dryad Equipment
Large, Causes Fear

0-2 Grafts - 25gc
Elves and Beastmen lured into the Dryad's retinue. Their limbs have been forcibly grafted to the limbs of dead Dryads, granting them increased strength, but at the cost of their sanity.
Stats: Human stats, with M5
Equipment: Dryads list
Special Rules: Dual-race: Grafts can be chosen to be either Beastmen (gors) or Elves (pick upon purchase). This has no effect on the Graft's initial stats, but affects the maximum racial stats.

HENCHMEN
0+ CREEPERS - 15GC
Corpses found by (or created by) the Branchwraith's family. Creeper vines encircle the limbs of the dead, and roughly guide the body like a marionette, letting the rank form shamble into battle.
Stats: Zombies, with M5.
Rules: fear, immune to psych, no pain, no brain, can't run.
0+ Ungors - Ungor price (25?)
Lone ungors, escaping from or let behind from a larger herd, often wind up joining the dryad's family. Even the possessive, murdeous impulses of the Branchwraith seem pleasant compared to the pecking order of the beastmen herd, not to mention the opportunity for advancement.
Stats: Ungor
0-5 Deadwood
Dryads remanimated by the Branchwraith's magics. Even though they are obviously empty, hollow shells, the Branchwraith dotes on them like loving sisters.
M5(6?), WS4, S3/4, T4
Rules: fear, immune to psych, no pain, no brain, can't run.

OTHER IDEAS:
Bowmen/Outlaws: Well, I'm sorry you didn't like the Outlaws warband. To be honest, I think the most stressful situation with doing Sartosa is that we attempted too many new warbands. (Don't get me wrong, I loved each like a baby, but it makes playtesting so much harder.) So to me, if the Outlaw warband works pretty well already, I don't think too many changes are needed. Maybe add the new Staff (posted in the WE thread) or the Quarterstaff (BTB), switching Sigmar prayers to Bret., etc, and the rest is not needed. Any changes you suggest to the Outlaw band?
ALONE IN THE WOODS: If you don't like the Locales idea, here's a few other ideas to change the feel of things:
~~Make the 'Lost' rules apply to every warband
~~Include a new item to stem the lose of death. Ex.
'Healing Salve- 15gc'. Healing salve is used on a hero, henchmen, or animal when it dies.
Henchmen: Roll 1D6: on a 1-2 The henchmen remains dead. 3-6 The henchmen survivese, but misses next game.
Heroes: Roll 1D6: on a 1- the hero still dies, 2-5 treat as 'Multiple Injuries, 6 - treat as miss next game
~If you truly want it to be an isolated, campaign of stamina (with little to no reinforcements), make the warbands start with 600-750gc at the start of the campaign. That way, it starts off mighty, but they dwindle as they go.
~Limit shops and Trading Posts to certain events. I.E. 1/2 to 1/3rd of the Exploration events take place close enough to a town or outpost that you can buy weapons. Otherwise, they can look for the local peddlar (who has a few weapons and various supplies, randomly generated each time you see him. No rolls for rarity, but completely random.)
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 21:51

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Bowmen/Outlaws: Well, I'm sorry you didn't like the Outlaws warband. To be honest, I think the most stressful situation with doing Sartosa is that we attempted too many new warbands. (Don't get me wrong, I loved each like a baby, but it makes playtesting so much harder.) So to me, if the Outlaw warband works pretty well already, I don't think too many changes are needed. Maybe add the new Staff (posted in the WE thread) or the Quarterstaff (BTB), switching Sigmar prayers to Bret., etc, and the rest is not needed. Any changes you suggest to the Outlaw band?
I *do* like the original outlaws warband a lot. They are one of my favourite warbands. I also just enjoyed some of the ideas that were throwing around for the suggested bowmen warband on the old SG forum. You did mention the essence of those changes though in your suggested tweaks to the outlaws warband. I am but a minor voice currently with no good alternatives so please don't put too much weight to my comments. Wink

I guess that the question is how powerful the 'Bretonnian' prayers are compared to the prayers of Sigmar as the prayers of Sigmar are quite powerful. Would the tweaked outlaws require any additional benefits if the 'Brettonian' prayers are quite a bit weaker. I do like the idea of two warbands using the same spell/prayer list in the same setting like Witch Hunters and Sisters of Sigmar both using the Prayers of Sigmar and yet hate each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 23:25

Good point. Personally, I HATE the Bretonnian 'Prayer' ability. It's taken straight from the WFB, I know, but considering it's the only Mord band with a default divine protection, it seems really out of place.

So, to me, if the Bretonnians have any divine protection from missile fire, it comes from two tangible sources, not from 'on high':

1. Lucky Charms (in the Bret list I'll propose, 'Lucky Charms' are a default item that Knights can buy at formation without rolling for rarity. They are given the alternate title "Lady's Favors".)
2. From spells. At least one or two Bret spells will have strong protection against any missiles and/or magic. Unlike the default prayer, though, this is not an automatic ability, but a spell with a caster and a difficulty role, just like any other warband.

I love the Lucky Charms so much, that I'm also tempted to propose two other things:
a. That a Bretonnian Spell actually interacts with Lucky Charms. (possible ex.: "Luck of the Lady: All heroes in your warband ignore the first hit they receive this game on a D6 roll of 4+. If they own a Lucky Charm, they reroll the result (the charm is still exhausted.)
b. That (possibly for Athel Loren) there is a small array of Charms introduced, as a selection of cheap Magic Items available for purchase. A 'Lucky Charm' is just one of these charms, and a hero may only have one charm (of any type) at a time. Other charms might include:

~Silver Charm. Ignore the first hit received on a 5+. If the attack was a missile or magic attack, it is ignored on a 2+ instead. 15gc
~Jade Charm. Ignore the first wound received (after rolling for critical hit types), on a 3+. 20gc
~Obsidian Charm. Ignore first hit on a roll of 6. If successfully saved, the blow is redirected to the person who dealt it. 15gc
~Charmed Shield. For the first blow received, the shield provides a +3 Save, to a maximum of 1+ total save. All other times, it grants a +1 save, like a normal shield. 20gc
~Warpstone Charm. May be used as a Lucky Charm, OR as a Rabbit's Foot, in any game. Once used as one, it may not be used as the other (meaning, after the first hit received by the warrior, it must be used as a Rabbit's Foot, or not at all.) 25gc
~Dragon's Charm. 4+ Save against the first attack received. If the attack was a fire-based attack (mundane or magical), it instead grants a 2+ save. 20gc
~Rune charm. 5+ save against the first hit. If received in hand to hand and dealt to a model with Tattoos, instead of providing a 5+ save to the hit, the tattoo saves are increased to 5+ for the rest of the round. 15gc
~Jet Charm- Spell and Prayer casters only. Provides a 5+ save to the first hit. If the attack was magical, the save is 3+. If saved, the Spell/Prayer cast gains +1 to his Power rolls next Shooting Phase. 25gc

Just an idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Sun 29 Mar 2009 - 15:15

I really like the idea with multiple charms, but we could make them only available to bretonnians?

This way they could be renamed a champions' gifts. Representing the tokens the knights are given by the noble bretonnian women from the town they come, this would also make them seem very much like knight errants. If we do iIt this way, warpstone charm has to go though.

As I haven't read the rules for the dwarf rangers yet, I have no comment on using them, I like the name, but I also like Styros Slayers (because you know Slayers are three levels of awesomeness).

On the alone in the woods:
This idea is appealing more and more to me, and I think it could work well, this would make people want to do ranged combat to save their warriors, while their bands will be tweaked towards close combat, thus they will have to sacrifice their warriors to win.
I'm not for giving extra starting gold, as that will just result in people maxing out right from the start.
The locales could work for this, but perhaps it should be rarer that you find anything, or most locales should only allow you to purchase cheap non-advancing henchmen, that way, most games will be about keeping your important warriors strong. If the Dryads at some point seem underpowered, we could exempt them from this rule to some extend.
The healing salve is a good idea, but perhaps instead it could cost the equavilent of a wyrdstone token? This way, you can limit your income to keep your warriors alive, so you will either get more gold for better equipment for a diminshing band, or keep status quo and not get that many weapons.
The problem with the locales is properly that people will just amass gold to when they get into their own Locale, perhaps we should make a rule that there is only 15+2d6 worth of warband rating to be hired at each locale, this way you could get 3-4 rookies at such a camp, or add about half that in experience warriors, large creatures would only rarely be available (as they increase rating by 25), this would also make steeds more rare.

I quite like the Dark/corrupted Dryad list, but do we keep the special un-removeable equipment? We could make them very similar to possessed if we want, however I dislike the idea of large heroes, they could be just dryads and would be about the stats of a possessed, will you open a new thread for them?
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Sun 29 Mar 2009 - 21:12

Charms and Gifts: Well, I think it could work well with all of the warbands, really. When you have armorless berserkers (wearing little more than tattoos), Lucky Charms seems to the way to go for protection. The way I see it, (although I'll double check how they do it in Necromunda, to see if they did it better), but at any small peddlar, the warband would walk and and be able to buy:

>>Up to three daggers (always available)
>>Three random common weapons (ex. you rolled, sword, double-handed, and another sword).
>>Two random missile/missile items (example roll: bow & hunting arrows)
>>One random charm (chosen from the list above: uh-oh, you rolled warpstone charm, not usuable by good warbands. too bad.)
>>One or two RARE items (nearly all would be compiled onto a single D20 list. You rolled: Tarot Cards & Wardog.)

Having the skill 'Streetwise' would let you roll an extra time on any of the above charts.

Locales: Well, the stockpiling for your own town DOES make sense, really. As far as short handed, I think total cost would be easier than rating amount. You can hire units worth up to D66 gold at any one visit. A roll of 11-13, however, is the breaking of the rules, however, and lets you buy as many henchmen as you like, no matter the cost.

Salve: That works. The pricing, (in my head) was: price of average hench: 25gc. Item that has a 2/3 chance of saving Hench life= 15gc. I like the Shard/Seed/Acorn better, though, as sometimes a shard can be worth LESS than 15gc (but is also harder to come by.) Is the table for the heroes too harsh, or should it be a little milder?

Dwarf Rangers: They're fine, except I have two tiiiiny beefs: They are lead by a Runesmith (which looks well balanced, but doesn't fit the 'ranger' theme), and the two champions are troll-slayers (also, to a lesser degree, not fitting the theme.) Really, for a warband called 'Dwarf Rangers', it really doesn't have ANY rangers, except the thunderer/quarreller units. If it was called 'The Runesmith Retinue', I'd be 75% happier with it. Been a while since I looked at the stats, though, so it might be balanced enough to allow in.

Dryads: Aaaww, I like the 'grafted' idea. It makes for a great conversion job. Sad

As far as posting it, any chance you could post the existing prototype Dryad band first? I think the Corrupted Dryads would be better if I can tweak it to include the exisiting, pure dryads first.

As far as the Kin, I think they NEED a pure, monsterous force. Treekins seem great (and just because Possessed models AREN'T Large doesn't mean they shouldn't be.) And if they are that much stronger than the default dryads we're using (lowered down for balance reasons, of course), having a brand new troop type makes sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 10:05

Having read through the dwarven ranger band I'm very opposed to using it, every dwarf-jack of them can get resource hunter, combined with tarot cards this mean that later in a campaign you can modify the exploration dice by +12/-12 IE you can choose whatever you want on the exploration chart.

I like your idea of the peddlar, and I think this should be the most common way to acces equipment.

I like your take on the locales, I thought it was easier to limit it on experience, as that way you could get large creatrues, but exempting 11-13 is a better way of doing it.

Ok so the wyrdstones will be vials of healing of some sort.

My computer has screwed up since the last forum, so I've lost all the old Athel Loren data files, for the moment I'm writing from memory. We could keep the grafted idea, it is pretty good, but hard to implement without changing too much.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 10:51

Hey Folks,

Wow, lots of work going on here. Gosh, I'd forgotten all about Athel Loren. Well, I wouldn't mind having a read (when I've some time) and jump back into it.

If you folsk were still interested, I may still have that Hollow Elves warband I was working on with you. You know, the undead elf fellows.

Let me know,

Daniel
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 13:15

Yes! Someone have them!

Please post them in a seperate thread Very Happy.

Will be good to see them again.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren Campaign   Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 17:38

Personally, I am a big fan of the "corrupted dryad" warband, and think it has more potential than the "undead elves" warband posted in another thread. That being said, I think both warbands have the posibility to work, given enough attention and playtesting.

Master wrote:
Having read through the dwarven ranger band I'm very opposed to using it, every dwarf-jack of them can get resource hunter, combined with tarot cards this mean that later in a campaign you can modify the exploration dice by +12/-12 IE you can choose whatever you want on the exploration chart.
That's identical to the official rules dwarf warband. The dwarf rangers are significantly weaker economically because they don't get the extra shard each game that their treasure hunter bretheren do.
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