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 Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set

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PostSubject: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Mon 23 Mar 2009 - 21:15

Based mostly on Brahm's list, here's my best stab at the Wood Elf list, to be debated/formed for Master's next big project, the Athel Loren campaign.

(Sources: Whenever making Elf bands, I always try my best to follow the Dwarf Treasure Hunter Warband, as I generally think that it's very balanced overwall, and that the Elves and Dwarves parallel each other greatly.)


GENERAL RULES:
Distrust: Will not ally with any enemy except Dryads, High Elves, Bretonnians, and Bowmen of Bergerac.
Delicate: May never use blackpowder weapons.
Child of Nature: No penalty for moving through Wooded Terrain.
Excellent Sight: Can spot hidden models at double Init range.

CHOICE OF WARRIORS
Min 3 models. Max 12

ALLOWED/EXP
1 Noble - 20
0-1 Sorceror - 10
0-2 Wardancers - 8

HENCHMEN
0+ Novices
0+ Eternal Guard
0-5 Glade Guard

WARRIOR EQUIPMENT
Dagger free/2
Club 3
Axe 5
Staff 5
Sword 10
Spear 10
Halberd 10
Double Handed Weapon 15
Double-Headed Spear 20

MISSILE
Bow 10
Long Bow 15
Elf Bow 35 (Noble & Sorceror Only)

ARMOR
Shield 5gc
Buckler 5
Helmet 10
Light Armor 20

MISC
Elf Cloak 60gc
Warpaint 25gc
Tatoos 15gc

RANGER EQUIPMENT
Dagger free/2
Club 3
Staff 5
Sword 10
Spear 10

MISSILE
Bow 10
Long Bow 15
Elf Bow 35 (Noble & Sorceror Only)

ARMOR
Shield 5gc
Helmet 10
Light Armor 20

HEROES
1 Wood Elf Noble - 85gc
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 5 3 3 1 6 1 9
Weapons: From Warrior List
Leader
Skills: Comb, Shoot, Acad, Speed, Special

0-1 Wood Elf Sorceror - 50
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 4 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Weapons: From Warrior List
Spells: May learn spells from the 'Prayers of Taal' Spell list. When a Sorceror casts them, they count as 'spells' instead of Prayers.
Skills: Acad, Speed, Special

0-2 WARDANCERS -50
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Weapons: Any h-t-h weapons from the Warrior List. May never use missiles or armor.
Special Rules: Dance of Blades
The Wardancer is Immune to Psychology. He will never use missile weapons or wear armor.
Skills: Comb, Speed, Special

HENCHMEN
0+ Wood Elf Novices - 25
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 3 3 3 3 1 4 1 7
Weapons: From Warrior List

0+ Eternal Guards - 35
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 4 3 3 3 1 5 1 8
Weapons: From Warrior List

0-5 Glade Guards - 35
M WS BS S T W I A LD
5 3 4 3 3 1 5 1 8
Weapons: From the Ranger List


SPECIAL EQUIPMENT

Staff - 5gc Common Item
Range: Close, Strength: Users, Special: Two Handed, Concussion, Parry
Two-Handed: The Staff is a two handed item, and may not be used with a buckler, shield, or additional hand weapon. A model armed with a shield may still receive a save in the Shooting Phase.
Concussion: The blows from a Staff provide a concussion effect, just like a hammer.
Parry: The staff may attempt to parry blows like a buckler.

DOUBLE HEADED SPEAR
20gc, rare 5, Wood Elves Only
Range: Close, Strength: Users, Special: Two Handed, Strike First, Backswing
Two-Handed: The Spear is a two handed item, and may not be used with a buckler, shield, or additional hand weapon. A model armed with a shield may still receive a save in the Shooting Phase.
Strike First: In the first round of combat, the user may make attacks equal to his Attack characteristic that strike first, before the normal initiative order. If the spear-wielding model is charged, then the order of attack is based on Initiative.
Backswing: The Double-Headed Spear grants an additional attack, that does NOT gain the 'Strike First' ability, but attacks during the normal attack order. It has no bonus or penalty, and counts as a 'bladed' weapon when dealing with Critical Hit Charts.

TATTOOS - 15gc, Rare 5 - Wood Elves, Slayers, Beastmen, Savage Orcs, & Forest Goblins Only
Ward Save: To each wound the user suffers, he receives a 6+ Ward save that is never modified or negated.
Not Armor: Tattoos are never increased with the use of armor, and may not be used with armor (excluding bucklers and helmets.) If the player decides to put armor on a Tattooed model at the start of the game, the tattoos will have no effect this game. If the opponent is attacking with a blow that grants an armor save, (i.e. daggers), the Tattooed model receives a Tattoo save OR the armor save (the defending player's choice.) Likewise, tattoos may be worn/used by models that are not allowed armor (such as Slayers or Wardancers.)
Permanent: Once worn, the tattoos are permanent, and may not be sold, traded, stolen, or lost.

Warpaint - Rare 5, 25+2d6gc
Warpaint is a one-time use item that may be worn at the beginning of any battle. The hero causes fear, and is immune to fear. It may not be worn by models that are wearing armor (helmets, bucklers, and tattoos excluded.)

SPECIAL SKILLS
Infiltrate - Same as Skaven
Fey Quickness - +1 to Dodge or Step Aside, provides 6+ on it's own.
Woodland Avengers - Hates all Orcs, Goblins, Beastmen, and Dark Elf warbands (and any Hired Swords with them.)
Potions Master - May make 1D3-1 Healing Herbs each game. May not be sold, and any not used are discarded after the game.
Hunter's Instinct - May target any enemy model, not just closest.

WARDANCER SKILLS:
Powerful Build - May learn Strength skills.
Whirling Death - Same as 'Wrath of Khaine' Skill from Lustria Dark Elves.


SPECIAL SKILLS
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 0:39

Actually, this is funny. I've been tinkering with a WE warband list myself. Since I don't actually play them, I thought I could be neutral.

I know that this is not exactly what you're looking for, but I was craving to have someone to bounce ideas off of.

Let me begin by saying that your list -just eyeballing- is really good, and balanced. I came up with a similar list in many ways. Mine, actually, so far is not nearly as good. It is too overpowered. My problem is that I used the Shadow Warrior list as a base, my thoughts being that wood elves are like high elves, only more so. What I mean is that they are even shootier, and that they are even more fragile in close combat. Well, since the consensus is that shadow elves are overpowered, any list the becomes "shootier" can only be devastating. But, I soldiered on hoping to capture the "feel" of WE.

For both, I change the max toughness to 3. There has not been an elf with t4 unless they were more than just an elf, like Orion.

I had waywatchers instead of wardancers, at bs5 / ws4.

took away all armor for all models, including helmets and bucklers. Toned down the magic (I love the idea of using the taal list)

Right now I'm trying to find a simple way to improve their shooting across the board. I'm trying to figure out a way to use the glade guard bows from WHFB. In there, they are str 4 within short range. I thought that maybe within 1/3 range if they have not moved would be appropriate, with nimble able to cancel out the move penalty. Or perhaps, more simply, give them a rule that they can move and shoot without penalty

as for skills, I took away powerful build and left in sniper, my thoughts being that it perfectly fits their fluff.

I wanted to make wardancers henchmen, and I have several ideas on how to do it, but I have nothing definite yet.

I wanted to add a rule that would reflect how rare elves are in Mordheim. Something like Almost Irreplaceable or Infinitely Precious and increase all hire fees by fifty percent or so once the campaign begins. I also decided to get rid of Novices, since just about every elf in the fluff is at least WS4/BS4 (which I also applied to this warband)

Anyways, those are a scattering of thoughts I had. Interesting to start from a different viewpoint though, eh?
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 1:30

I really like the list styro. It was wise to base it on the treasure hunters list in strength. As Goose mentioned, the shadow warriors list is a very poor one to use as a strength guideline.

I really like how you have 2 dedicated melee heroes. This discourages the shadow warriors phenomenon of 6 hidden heroes with sniper. I also really like how you did away with sniper but replaced it with a very good shooting skill: Hunter's Instinct. This skill will be extremely powerful, but it wont have the ridiculous cheesiness of the aforementioned sniper.

Agains, the taal spell list is a very good idea.

If it is an Athel Loren campaign setting, you could even include some forest spirits (for instance 0-2 dryads). Oh, I just noticed that there is going to be a dryads warband, so that would explain their absence here...

Although I like the idea, Potions Master seems to me to be quite useless until perhaps very late in a campaign. I don't really have any ideas to improve it, but it's certainly much worse than the poisons master skill which the DE have.

P.S. You don't ever describe your rules for the "dance of blades" ability.

Oh, and Goose, if you do keep the sniper skill for your warband, please rewrite it to give a model which is shot at a chance to initiative test to reveal the shooter. As it is currently written, a shadow warrior with sniper who climbs into a building is often invincible vs dwarves, and sometimes even against M4 races.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 6:42

We need to tone down the excellent sight, auto-spotting all hidden enemies within 10-12" are just too good for a missile based band. Perhaps make them at +2 I when spotting hidden models? or simply throw it away?

I think we should get rid of the wood elven novices, perhaps instead we could include some wardogs, so they still have a cheap missile shield. Or perhaps stags?

I think we should re-word the equipment list so elf bow says heroes only, that way a promoted henchmen will also get acces to the elf bow.

Also the elf bow is not really worth it's points IMO, at least not at startup where the difference to a longbow is 20 gc, IE about half the cost of another warrior.

I know your take on the T4 elven max stats, that it should be there and although I don't agree, I think that it will work if we limit them from strength skills.

I think the infiltration skill should be limited to 2-3 warriors, having half your warband start anywhere will break the game later on.

I think wardancers should receive a bonus when using 2 swords, perhaps let them start with the expert swordsman skill, that way, the double-headed spear will not be their favored weapons.

I think we should add javelins to both equipment lists, perhaps along with throwing knives.

Warpaint is a bit expensive, causing fear and no armour ain't woth 25-30 gc, it is rather in the 10-15 gc group, as it is only for one game.

But it is nice to dig up these old pearls, we also need to look at the bretonnians again though.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 18:22

On my computer I can't tell if there is more to the list or not. Are there Wardancer skills? I would recommend keeping the lowly novices just because the list reads to a Warhammer player like an elites only list. Warhounds would be a good addition just to add some variety.

On the whole I would suggest rethinking the why of the list. What is the purpose of this group of warriors? It seems to me that you could make a Wardancer only theme using the Warhammer Wood Elves book as a guide. (Or a Waywatcher theme, Wood Elves as a theme seems too general.) The Shadow warriors have an identity and purpose based on the Warhammer fluff for High Elves that fits the Mordheim warband. The Dark Elf warband is less so. Is this group a questing group or guardians or a retinue for the noble?

The Sorcerer. The choice of Taal is a simple one but why a Sorcerer an not a Tree Singer or some other suitably tree-hugging title.

On Wardancers I would suggest that immunity from psych be a skill not an innate ability. Why are wardancers BS 4 if they don't use missile weapons? Using javelins or throwing weapons would be a nice touch. Although in any case the Ballistic Skill ought to drop,
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 18:41

Shooty vs. HtH: About a year ago, I think I made it even MORE wardancer based, with one or two dancer heroes AND 0-5 Wardancer elite henchmen (they'd be 40gc each.) Someone reminded me that while a bow is powerful, compared to the S4 of a xbow, it's not a game breaker. With that in mind, I made it not IMPOSSIBLE to make a team of Sniper heroes, but the default setting has only 1 hero with access to Shooting Skills.

Toughness: I stick to my old, persnickety ways, and like the 5th Ed WFB Max Toughness of 4. The fact that they'll be facing opponents with Mighty Blow (not to mention double-handed weapons, Possessed, and Flagellants) a max tough of 4 seems bare minimum. Originally, I had the Wardancers able to learn any Strength skill but Resilient, but a friend convinced me to use the 'Strong Build' skill. Thus, it is possible for only 2 elves to reach Toughness 5, and it takes them 3 advances to get it.

The only way I'd concede to Max tough 3 elves with no resilent skill is if they had 'Fey Quickness' as a default ability. Otherwise, I expect they'd get creamed. Given that I WANT them to survive in a H-t-h battle, I think that Max 4 works fine.

S4 Bows: I had an idea for an ability like that, but didn't end up using it. I think I used it in a Bowmen of Bergerac band (which will now be a simple variation of the Outlaws of Stirland.) I called it 'Strong Pull", and could not be used with Quick Shot.

Rare Finding Elves: While the fluff allows it, I think that it's not needed, really, and is just one more handicap on a warband that (ideally) doesn't need it. (Plus, I have in mind a similar chart for Athel Loren, based on Master's old idea... hiring units may take a little longer, depending on how you roll.)

Sniper Skill: Hmm. Forgot about that. Well, if everyone agrees NOT to use it, I'll leave it out.

Armor: I think a LITTLE bit of armor would be fine. I already took away Heavy Armor and Ithilmar, so leaving them Shields and Lght Armor didn't seem too much of a boon. Plus, they have the new Tattoos (which, rules pending, are one of the 'theme' rules in Athel Loren.) Although, to agree with your idea, if it WAS a Sniper-based warband, with 2 waywatchers, S4 bow shots, and sniper skills, it'd make sense to give them Max tough 3 and no armor. They'd shot a good fight, but they'd be weak against counter-fire.

Dryads: They're getting their own warband. Although, I'm tempted to stick a 200gc Treekin in there.

Dance of Blades: Shoot. I don't have it on me. It's from the Dark Elf list. To paraphrase, if your wardancer defeats all foes in combat, you may charge the nearest enemy within 4". During the next Combat Phase (even if it's your opponent), it counts as though your warrior charged first. Something like that. I like it, cause there was almost the exact same skill in the OOOLD Warhammer Quest Wardancer character.

Infiltrate: Don't see it as that bad of a thing. True, with Skaven, all of the Infiltrating heroes will not be the majority, but it's no different than, say, the skill Hunch.

Novices: I happen to like them. 1. it parallels the Dwarves, which are pretty balanced. 2. Unlike Wolves or Stags, they can gain exp, which can save the life of a money-squeezed warband. Of course, having a 25gc-experience learning henchmen type is more vital if the other henchmen are worth 40GC instead of 35. Part of me is tempted to give the other two types a minor ability (example: Eternal Guard- may reroll 1 spear or double-headed spear attack.... Glade- does not count woods as cover when shooting), pushing them to the 40gc range.

Swords: It's fine by me if they go with swords or spears. I've seen Wardancer models armed with both. Preference, really.

Elf Bows/Equipment: 'Heroes Only'. Good thinking, I'll change it soon. Should they be lower cost at start-up? ALSO good idea with the javelins. I'm thinking no with the knives, just so you don't have Skaven-style elf ninjas running around.

Warpaint: 15 or 15+1D6 sounds good to me. Plus, it'll show up in a lot of Exploration events (and if we have a Athel-style 'cargo' table... you guys shot down my idea of a Magic Item chart, but I'm not beaten yet.)


One more thought: I was tempted to make a 'Shadow Coil' Skill for the Wardancer, which would read as such:

Shadow Coil: This skill grants the abilities of the skill 'Dodge' AND the skill 'Step Aside'. It may be used with 'Fey Quickness', but learning or already knowing 'dodge' or 'step aside' does not cause the ability to stack. If, by injury or effect, the Wardancer loses or forgets the skill 'Shadow Coil', both the 'step aside' and 'dodge' skills are lost.

So, while not making him a great OFFENSIVE power, it would definitely make the Wardancer as steadfast as any Dwarf Trollslayer (what, with his T4 and hard to kill-ness.) Too much?
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 18:48

Von Kurst:

Fluff: Hmm. Good point. Sadly, I am lacking a rulebook at this time, and went with balance first. Likewise, I saw the term 'Sorceror' on Brahm's list, and assumed it was fluff-based. I'll try to do more research when I can.

Wardancers: Unless I'm crazy, I think that they are Immune to Psych in WFB (they also start with +1 Attack when charging, which is another option.) As for why they have BS4, I did it simply for the reason that it'd max out faster (their default BS is 4, if I recall, so no sense lowering down just to frustrate people.)

I like the javelins, but not for the Wardancers. They are no-missile only. Although, in Brahm's band, he did have a Javelin-wielding unit type. If we went with a Wardancer-themed warband, I could see Javelin-wielding novices paired with 0-5 Wardancer elite henchmen, and a 0-5 shooters.

Animals: I think that wouldn't KILL the theme. Personally, I try to keep the number of Heroes and Henchmen down to 3 of each, but if the total is no more than 7, I think it'd wouldn't break the design.

Bretonnians: I have a few more ideas, but they'll have to wait till later. Back to REAL work, dave, back to work!
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 19:05

Yeah, maybe drop the starting price for elf bows to 25 or 30 gold? You could also give the warband a better chance to find elf bows, difficulty 12 is absurd for such an item.

Why not just state that wardancers can never use missile weapons and give them a BS of 0? That gets rid of the absurdly aggravating situation of forcing a melee-only unit to improve BS.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 19:42

Wardancers--yes they are immune to psych in Warhammer. And Plague Monks are all frenzied in Warhammer, but in Mordheim a Plague Monk must gain a skill or injury to be frenzied. Ogres have 3 attacks in Warhammer but 2 in Mordheim--just a suggestion for possible character advancement.

Wardancers in Warhammer also have several 'dances' to choose from which would be nice to expand on or at least bring to Mordheim. Shadows Coil for example.

I guess my preference in choosing a warband is not their mode of attack but their background. Why the warband is on the battlefield. I think there could be several Wood Elf warbands in your setting since it is Athel Loren. Or the warband could have enough choices that several builds were possible from the same basic choices like the Pirate warbands of Sartosa. The current edition of Wood Elves are organized around Kindreds which are mainly a way of giving special skills/abilities to characters but also reflect the units of the army. Wood Elf heroes are now called Highborn and spell casters are Tree Singers (members of the Glamourweave Kindred).

Wardancers and Waywatchers are members of separate kindreds and heroes can choose to belong to either (but not both). Thus you could include the choice for either Wardancer heroes or Waywatchers (same basic stats, just swap WS/BS) depending on the Kindred the Highborn chose to belong to.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 21:25

AAARGH! I had a whole post in response, but it got erased. Grr. to sum up:

BS0: Makes a lot of sense, but would be unfair to the OTHER non-missile heroes that have to max out THEIR BS too.

Elf Bows: 25 for starters sounds fair. Also, in Athel Loren, I bet they're less Rare.

Wardancers: My three thoughts for a starting default ability are "immune to psych", "+1 attack on charge", or fey quickness. They need SOMETHING.

Dances: To me, 'Dances' just equals "Wardancer only skills". They can be based on/inspired by the WFB dances, but the 'only one dance at a time" restriciton seems too much for me, nor do I feel that we should tie ourselves to the dances and the dances only.

Warbands: You're absolutely brilliant, Von. Depending on what we pick, the henchmen may change, but I personally like the Leader->Mage->2 Champion hero formula for the WE. Here are possible types:

1. Wardancers: the Middenheimers. Champions are Wardancers, and henchmen with TLGT may become Wardancers too (revoking missiles and armor, of course.)

2. Waywatchers: The reiklanders. Maybe Glade Guard start with Eagle Eye too. (A friend either found or invented a Waywatcher HS with the skill of 'traps': the way he wrote it, whenever the hero was charged, the charger suffered a S3 hit on a 5+ and the charge failed. I don't know if I like that exact rule, but Something of that auto-trap system seems like a neat idea.

3. Not sure. Was there a third kindred type?
3a. Maybe a short-range group, with Beastmaster Champions? Other bonuses include improved javelins (maybe an extra 6-8" range, or +1 Strength), or +1 Movement to Novices.
3b. another idea is a Dryad/Treeman sympathesizer group.
3c. a Female group?
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 24 Mar 2009 - 22:34

There are 7 Kindreds including the Wardancers, Waywatchers and Glamourweavers.

Eternal Kindred--tied to guarding sacred places, fight with Eternal Guard weapons and training.

Alter Kindred--shapeshifters. Loners. Not really useful except as a hired sword or special character. (Beastmaster?)

Scout Kindreds--separate from Waywatchers, but no real difference.

Wild Riders--members of the Wild Hunt. If you have 5th edition Wood Elf's book they replace the kindred of Equos. Wild Riders ARE Tree Spirits. Nice group for 3a above. (Orion's hounds, tatoos, elven steed or stag as a mount.)

Females/Forest Spirit would be your Glamourweavers although the model range has always included female wood elf warriors be they wardancers or archers.

The third group could also shift the focus. Glamourweavers Kindred--the Spellsinger is the warband leader and the Highborn is a personal guardian (which would possibly include the Alter Kindred types.) Champions are...

All I got.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 9:51

The waywatchers has to go.

Remember that one of the base ideas of the Athel Loren setting is to make a more close-combat/short ranged oriented setting, also the quantity>quality in Mordheim was an issue i had trouble with, this is why daemons was on the original list of warbands.

Only the bowmen of bergerac are a real ranged warband, and they still incorporate a lot of close combat (like the quarterstaff).

I like the idea of making a little difference to different kindreds though.

Wardancers need to be one of them, mainly because they are both quality > quantity and because they are melee oriented, defensive through high ws and dodge skills.

Wild riders & alter could be combined to Feral. Elves that are closer to the wild, they like to hunt and kill, their skills focus on killing quickly but they are as fragile as any elf.

Eternal guardian could be the last, focusing on magic? Or something else?

Or instead we could do it like we did with the HE from the Sartosa setting? Making them able to choose a kindred, instead of an honour, this is the easiest way of incorporating an entire army into one warband, although I don't think it should be used too often.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 20:47

I stopped reading after you said dryad list.

You could have Dryad leaders, Spell singers, and waywatchers as heroes. Dryads, Saplings (weaker dryads with some type of specialty) elf wardens (simple low profile elves), forest sprites, and tree-kin as henchmen.

This is the list i am more interested in seeing, although i do like how you actually tried to balance the general list, it looks well though out.

I actually don't know much about Wood Elvf background so I'm not sure what else would work...
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Wed 25 Mar 2009 - 21:33

When I first read the "Waywatchers has to go" post, I thought "Dude."

Having read the Athel Loren post I have more of an idea of where you are trying to go even though I don't understand why you would chose Athel Loren to get there. The Wardancers, Wild Riders and Eternal Guard are all close combat oriented in the current background. Cutting the Waywatchers out of the setting would remove the most logical "warband" type of Wood Elf unit since these elves (elite scouts) would be the ones to locate foes and make the decision to seek more help or to deal with intruders on their own.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 7:42

Well, I dislike "shooty" bands, because I think there is much more tactic, roleplaying and fun in going into close combat. I'm not saying we should bar wood elves from missile weapons, I just prefer close combat, also in Athel Loren.

Perhaps we could have a waywatcher hired sword? Kindda like the Big Game Hunter, but with infiltration and a bonus when hiding. To me the waywatchers are just too missile focused to base a warband on.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 16:11

Although I absolutely love their fluff, I would strongly advise against wild riders. Having 18" move through forest terrain would entirely break the setting.

I agree that for balance reasons the wood elves should not be allowed their specialized shooting units in this setting. Fluffwise, the WE have never been close to defeat in a battle of equal numbers. Typically, they've been far outnumbered and win by whittling down the enemy with hit & run bowfire. I believe this would happen if you allow them too many shooty options, as they are already be able to far outmaneuver the other warbands in the forest (dryads excepted).

I actually believe that tactics come in due to the mix between shooting and melee Wink. If everyone is restricted to close combat, then the victor is primarily determined by who has had a better post-game in the campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 16:58

I agree no riding wild riders in a Mordheim setting, 18" range is too much.

I agree that if everyone is limited to only close combat the game will be won by the band that is most survivable, but if ranged combat can be done better than close combat (as for the shadow warriors) then some bands have no idea of moving forward, and when they keep stationary it is a bit boring.

Sure wood elves should have some bow-armed warriors, but the 7 max that styro suggested, seems fine to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 17:19

50 coins for Scorcer and Dancer? Underpriced.

ONly 25 coins for the henchmen who get better stats than 25 gold coin human henchmen?
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 20:47

Again, I heavily based it heavily on the Dwarf Treasure Hunters.
The Wardancer is basically a Trollslayer. He has +1 WS (but lacking the Dwarf Hard to Kill/Head Head, so it probably balances out.) I doubt the Sorceror/Tree Weaver is worth more than 50-55. (Hmm. A Warrior Priest is 40, plus +15 for being an Elf, would make 55.) Sound good?

No Elven Steeds? Okay, I guess that works. I think we shouldn't FORBID them, but if we want to deter their use, we'll just make them learn 'Ride Elven Steed' and waste a skill like normal.

As far as the Shooty-vs-Melee, I like the 'Honours' idea we used with the Lothern Sea Patrol sounds good to me. That way, we can limit the number of shooters, but still have a variety to choose from. (Although the WE book sakes that Kindreds normally travel together with like-minded individuals, this might be a good alternative.)

CHAMPIONS
The champions would have base Wood Elf stats, access to the Warrior Equipment List, and cost maybe 45gc. They may purchase one of the following Honours when first bought (question: should we extend this to the Leader and Spellsinger too?):

Of the 7 Kindred, I think the following looks good to me:

Wardancers: Gain +1 WS, Access to Wardancer skills, and immune to psych. May not wear armor, use missiles, or ride. Cost 10gc.

Wild Rider: Starts with S4. May access any Strength skill except Resilient. Loses Shooting skills, and may not use any missile weapon that is not thrown. Cost 15gc.

Alter: Starts with +1 Initiative. The Alter, and any wolves in your warband, may move an additional 6" after being deployed. 10gc

Scout: Access to Elf Bow. You gain +1 or -1 to an exploration dice each post game. 10gc. You may only have one Scout in your warband at a time.

Waywatcher: Starts with +1 BS, and access to the Ranger Equipment list instead of the Warrior list. Access to Infiltrate and 'Trap' skill. May only have 1 waywatcher in your warband at a time. - 10gc

Eternal Guard: Your warrior may intercept charges that are 4" away from him, rather than the normal 2" intercept range. Also, while the Leader is on the board, the Guard is immune to All Alone tests. -10gc

Glamourweaver: This a an Honour that may be taken by your Spellsinger. Whenever learning a new spell (including his default spell), roll two dice, and pick whichever of the two results you wanted. - 10gc
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 21:07

Yeah, the wardancer and sorcerer are probably a bit underpriced. You forget that dwarves have nearly half the movement of elves. Instead of making them too much more expensive, I'd have them both start with 11 xp.

The kindreds idea is pretty sweet, but I think it's a bit overboard for a warband. At the very least, you have to simplify it significantly from what it is now. I'd suggest removing the scout, waywatcher, and glamourweaver kindreds. This leaves you with the melee oriented ones, which seems to be the theme of the setting.

The eternal guard kindred is a bit weak, while the wild rider, scout, waywatcher, and glamourweaver kindreds all seem too good for the cost.

Frankly, I thought the band seemed good with 2 wardancers to start.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Thu 26 Mar 2009 - 23:21

Styro-I like the way you adapted the Kindreds. It seems fairly simplified in its current form. I mainly like it because it allows the warband to be a variety of things without a need for 7 different warrior choices.

I have no problem with limiting the number of shooty elves, I just have an issue with attempting to not include them.
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Fri 27 Mar 2009 - 16:27

Then we are agreed von Kurst, I don't think we should stop missiles weapons from their rightful place in a wood elf band, but I don't think they should take the most of it as with the shadow warriors.

To answer the underpriced here are my thoughts:

Wardancers at 50gc are definately not underpriced, try comparing them to middenheim champions: for +15gc you get +1M +1WS -1S, +2I and +1LD. However, you also lose access to any kind of missile weapon, meaning your bs is basically 0, and you cannot get armour, which means you are stuck with being fragile. So you pay 15 gc for a worse equipment list and +4 to your soft stats while you lose one point from your strong stats.

On the sorcerer I think 45-50 gc is fine, but this can be argued.

On to the ideas:

So if we go with the kindred way then:
I think all heroes should have acces to them, as well as a possible purchase upon being promoted.

Wild rider needs to be renamed, it's just odd that you don't ride automatically when you are a wild rider. It could be renamed to hunter of Kurnous or something similar.
Alters should be loners, perhaps instead of the wolf feature, they could get M7 (as fast as the wolves) and some sort of loner or beastmaster ability, +1 initative is just stupid for elves, as their initative is huge anyway. For fluff it should probably be only one per warband, or perhaps just a hired sword?

Way watcher needs to cost more, and be one or two per warband, we don't want anyone building a starting force of bs 4-5 dudes. If not, we need to limit the warband from having anything but a leader at BS 4 without kindreds.

Eternal guard: I kindda like the intercept within 4" combined with a spear and a good initative, IMO it is pretty good, so they don't need the immune to all alone while the leader is on the board, it is also quite useless as you want to keep him within 4" of your important targets.

We might want to knock most of the prices up a bit, although this is testing, and if the warband only features 4 heroes and 12 warriors max, it will need a strength to make up for these weaknesses.

So that being said, here is a rough draft for the honour/kindred band:

1 Warden - Leader. - about 70-80gc
Normal (perhaps a bit better) elf stats, WS 5 & BS 4, I5, LD9
As he can get +1bs or ws or S with a kindred I don't think we need to make them better, perhaps WS 5 is a little too much?
Combat, Shooting, Academic, Speed, Special skills.

0-1 Spellsinger: 45-55gc
Sub-par elf stats, having focused more on spells, ws & bs 3, I4.
Remember that even though (s)he is a spellsinger (s)he can still get the kindreds, meaning (s)he could actually be a caster that is as good in combat as a mercenary champion, but with a close range spell list (if we keep the prayers of Taal).
Academic, speed & special.

0-2 Glade champions: 40-50gc
Champion stats, with elven movement, leadership and initative: IE M5, Ws4, I5, LD8
With the kindreds they can be fairly good at anything you want them to do, the scout would be the weakest, but then again, he would have a tremendous effect on your post-game income.
Combat, Shooting, Speed, Special.

Henchmen:
0-7 or 0-5 Shooty elves (name pending): 40gc
Same stats as the singer +1 bs.

Elven warriors: 35gc
Specialising in close quarter combat, they get no access to bows, however they have both bs and ws 4.

Wolves: 15gc
Same as the with hunters dogs, but move through woods and +1M but -1S.

(Elven trainees: 25-30gc, same stats as the singer).
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 16:30

Alter: M6 and Beastmaster ability (can use his LD) sounds good to me.

Close Combat: Brahm, on his list, had a group called 'hunters'... basically hand-to-hand units with access to javelins. Makes for a good equipment list for the Warriors & Alter/WildRider/Eternal guard(?) warriors, no?

Eternal Guard: Actually, I have a better phrasing in mind for the Eternal Guard, which makes them a bit better (in a subtle way):

Bodyguard: Whenever an enemy model declares a charge at a model with 4" of the Guard, (and the Guard is not engaged in combat, knocked down or stunned), the Guard may make an immediate 2" move in any direction, which takes place before the charge is implemented. This may only be used if it allows the Guard to intercept the charge (which he/she must do), and only once per movement phase.

The difference is that it actually allows a Guard (that is standing BEHIND the charged model) to move in front and intercept the charge. Your thoughts?

Leader: WS5/BS4 sounds right to me, given the honour system.

Waywatchers/Scouts: The way I have it above, there is only 1 waywatcher per warband, and only 1 scout. This means that the only other way to have any other bow shooters is to have the last champion take NO honor, as all of the other honours block you from using bows. With this is mind, I don't think the Spellweaver should have access to some of the honours. The only ones that make sense are the Glamourweaver or the Alter.

Kindred option b: Remove scout, and let the sole Waywatcher be the only special kindred with access to bows. The only other way that a champion can have a bow is to not take an honor (if that's the case, the Champion cost should be 50gc... which, of course, excuses keeping the Honours in the low 10-15gc range.)
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Sun 29 Mar 2009 - 15:23

I think we should keep the scout kindred. I just didn't see the you may only have one waywatcher.

On the spellsinger I think that we should allow them to take any kindred, if they take wardancer they can be like blade singers in D&D, but I'm not sure about this, it is a minor thing which can be discussed in detail later.

I like your version of eternal guard, they will be very effective, but also pretty needed, if we go with the oh my god you are lost approach.

The alter, should not be allowed to be the party leader. Also he should have access to bows, they do use the Hail of Doom Arrow quite frequently in WHFB.

Apart from that the close combat list seems fine to me.

Also I'm not sure on why we would want to keep the trainees, they wont get used a lot as the warband max size is 12, and they will kindda ruin the elite feel of the elf band, I've always been against this type of warriors, but well, most people seem to think they have a place in the warband, so we could keep them, it is just, when we have wolves, this band doesn't need any missile screen unit.

Another thing: Should we allow promoting henchmen to purchase an honour? or allow all heroes without an honour to take one with a skill?
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PostSubject: Re: Athel Loren: (yet another) Wood Elf Warband Set   Tue 31 Mar 2009 - 19:23

Spellsinger: hmm. Not sure. I kinda like him being NOT combat. Besides, he doesn't have access to Combat skills, so having him as the wardancer seems silly.

Alter: No leader, agreed. Although, do we do the more lenient: "may not be taken but a noble," or the harsher "may never be taken by a noble, nor may the hero become leader while there is another hero in the warband." ?

Honour: Sounds good. To keep it the same as the Slayers (and the Lothern, I think), have it, "When a Hero receives a TLGT, he may, instead of receiving an immediate advancement roll, purchase an honour, paying the necessary gc."
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