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 Pistol Attacks in Close Combat

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DRD1812
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PostSubject: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 13:35

I asked this question under another heading ("skaven help") but i think it may be buried under other replies. So here it is on its own:

How do you handle multiple attacks on a hero's profile in conjunction with a brace of pistols? If I use both pistols in close combat, do I lose my extra profile attack(s)? If I attack with only one pistol, does my off-hand weapon get the multiple attacks on my hero's profile?

Examples:
Rolf has 2 profile attacks and carries a brace of pistols. He charges and elects to use both pistols. Does he
A) Get only 2 pistol attacks
B) Get 2 pistol attacks and one attack with his dagger
C) Get 3 pistol attacks

Rolf has 2 profile attacks and carries a brace of pistols. He charges and elects to use one pistol and his dagger. Does he
A) Get 1 pistol attack and 2 knife attacks
B) Get 1 pistol attack and 1 knife attack
C) Choose between 2 pistol attacks and 1 knife attack/2 knife attacks and 1 pistol attack


Last edited by DRD1812 on Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 13:43; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 13:41

You could easily rule that your offhand is the pistol, therby giving your main hand the close combat weapon. Simple way to use your shot and get your attacks at the same time. I would not allow a brace though, as that would require both hands, and you wouldn't have time to holster the gun, draw your other weapon and fight with it. Just my thought...
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 13:42

I would imagine that you would either get one attack with each pistol, or you can choose to use 1 pistol in one hand and another weapon in the other (thus utilizing all of the attacks on your profile). I would have to dig through the rulebook to say for sure tho.

Also, some groups allow people to use a spent pistol as a club in CC. If your group does this it stands to reason that the character could take any additional attacks allowed by his profile as club attacks (pistol whip, biatch!)
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 13:43

Lol! Pistol Whipped! That's a thought! Sounds like there's a reasonable way to allow it after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 14:04

Heh. "Pistol Whip" sounds like a great logical ruling. Fluff to the rescue!

It's just that, being a rules guy, I hate that there are no definitive answer for this stuff (cue single dusty rules-lawyer tear)
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 14:17

Blame GW.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 14:22


Actually, there is a definitive answer to this. Check page 31 of the core rule book. Under pistols it dictates how they are used in close combat:

"A model armed with a pistol and another close combat weapon gains +1 Attack, which is resolved at Strength 4 with a -2 save modifier. This bonus attack can be used only once per combat. If you are firing a brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the first turn of close combat. These attacks are resolved with a model's Weapon Skill like any normal close combat attack and likewise may be parried. Successful hits are resolved at Strength 4 with a -2 save modifier, regardless of the firers Strength."

So, in your two examples above, Rolf gets two pistol attacks in the first example, for the first round only (then he resorts to his 2 profile attacks and - this is where my brain hasn't kicked in yet - one extra attack for being armed with an additional close combat weapon - but they are resolved as normal)
Example 2 is the same - he gets 2 dagger attacks and 1 pistol attack (option a).
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 14:30

Keep in mind that rolf may only use his pistols in CC once per CC. If he opts to fire both in the first round then he may not use them again at all, and they do not count as an additional CC weapon (unless you are using the house rule I mentioned above.)
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 14:50

I understand the text of the pistols...it clearly states that using 2 pistols results in only 2 attacks, regardless of the number of attacks on profile. I just like to give all the possible options for the sake of thoroughness, even if I can deduce for myself that some of them are incorrect.

What prompted the initial post is this: it struck me as strange that a multi-attack warrior should lose his extra profile attacks when he's armed with the supposedly advantageous pistols. I just wanted to know how the rest of you guys handle it.

IN SUMMATION
According to the rules, using 2 pistols in the first round of close combat results in only 2 attacks (as per the "close combat" rule in the pistol description) regardless of the number of attacks on a hero's profile.

Alternatively, using one pistol in the 1st round allows for multiple profile attacks from a 2nd hand weapon and a single attack from the pistol.

That said, a more perfect solution might be the house rule of extra profile attacks via "pistol whip" as discussed above.

(I should also point out that this house rule saves GC by arming your model for close combat without the addition of traditional close combat weapons. If you choose to put this rule into effect, perhaps the guns should cost an extra 3 GC apiece to mimic the price of clubs and offset the discount. You could also say that the "pistol whip" rule only applies to the first round of close combat, after which the warrior must draw his standard melee weapons.)
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 19:56

I would think that if you didn't use both pistols in the first round (only getting 2 pistol attacks)

You could use the 2 dagger attacks and 1 pistol on the first and 2nd rounds (1 shot each) and then after use the pistol as a club (house rule) still getting the extra +1 attack for additonal CC weapon.

I mean thats how they do it in the movies right??
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 28 Jan 2009 - 21:01

You can house rule anything. But you may not fire one pistol in the first round of combat and then fire the second in the second because pistols may only be fired in the first round of hand to hand unless you have a house rule.

js
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Thu 29 Jan 2009 - 15:41

DRD1812 wrote:
Heh. "Pistol Whip" sounds like a great logical ruling. Fluff to the rescue!


why not add +3gc to the base cost of a pistol so that it counts as club too Wink

that being said, maybe handguns should be +5 gc so that it also counts as a 2handed weapon Smile or +2gc for a spear! (bayonet Very Happy)

sorry perhaps a bit off topic lol! but it's relevant! afro
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Thu 29 Jan 2009 - 17:51

Well, using the pistol as a club is just how I have heard other people suggest it. I personally would be inclined to count it as a CC weapon with no bonuses or drawbacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Fri 30 Jan 2009 - 15:41

Having a bayonet on a Handgun would be neat though.

I have a question though; do you apply the reload rule when whising to use the pistols in the first round of combat? E.g. If I shot last turn, with my pistol, shouldn't this logically rule out the option of using it in the next close combat face? Or do you see this as a special case and allow it anyway?
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Fri 30 Jan 2009 - 15:48

I am not gonna dig through the rules to find out for sure, but, if I recall, it was ruled on the old SG forums that you could fire the first turn of CC even if you shot the last turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Fri 30 Jan 2009 - 18:21

I think you still need one round to reload some weapons. Unless you have the skill that allows you to shoot each round, I would think that either way, it's every other round, and that means every other round, you could shoot. If you shot previous round, then you have to wait one round.

That's a tactic you and your opponent could use to either advantage. Make sure you charge an opponent who shot last round, to disable him from using that pistol this round in CC.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Fri 30 Jan 2009 - 19:57

PitFighterTrainer wrote:
I think you still need one round to reload some weapons. Unless you have the skill that allows you to shoot each round, I would think that either way, it's every other round, and that means every other round, you could shoot. If you shot previous round, then you have to wait one round.

That's a tactic you and your opponent could use to either advantage. Make sure you charge an opponent who shot last round, to disable him from using that pistol this round in CC.

I'll second that.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Fri 30 Jan 2009 - 22:34

PitFighterTrainer wrote:
I think you still need one round to reload some weapons. Unless you have the skill that allows you to shoot each round, I would think that either way, it's every other round, and that means every other round, you could shoot. If you shot previous round, then you have to wait one round.

That's a tactic you and your opponent could use to either advantage. Make sure you charge an opponent who shot last round, to disable him from using that pistol this round in CC.

Ok, here are the relevant rules:

Mordheim Rulebook pg 31 wrote:
Prepare shot: A pistol takes a whole turn to reload, so you may only fire every other turn. If you have a brace of pistols (ie, two) you may fire every turn.

Mordheim Rulebook pg 31 wrote:
Hand-to-hand: Pistols can be used in hand-to-hand combat as well as for shooting. A model armed with a pistol and another close combat weapon gains +1 Attack, which is resolved at Strength 4 with a -2 save modifier. This bonus attack can be used only once per combat. If you are firing a brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the first turn of close combat. These attacks are resolved with a modelís Weapon Skill like any normal close combat attack and likewise may be parried. Successful hits are resolved at Strength 4 and with a -2 save modifier, regardless of the firerís Strength.

So, the way I remember it, this is how it works. Prepare shot is a rule that affects how the weapon behaves in shooting. It does not say that the weapon can only be used every other turn, it says "can only be shot." Hand-to-hand states that having the pistol gives you one attack in a CC at a specific profile. It doesn't say you "shoot" it, it doesn't say you can't have shot last turn. It says a brace gives you two attacks that must be used in the first turn of CC, again not specifying that you "shoot" or that you must not have shot prior.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Sat 31 Jan 2009 - 0:10

Uh, STR 4 attack, which is what pistols are. Otherwise, how would having a pistol in your hand grant you an extra attack on the first round besides shooting it? Hitting with it? How else would you determine an extra attack at Strength 4?
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Sat 31 Jan 2009 - 0:12

I am just telling you what was ruled on the old SG forums as best I remember it.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Sat 31 Jan 2009 - 0:13

So that was a valid ruling from GW or something? Interesting concept.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Sat 31 Jan 2009 - 0:30

Ask Da Bank about it, He was an ANSWER_MOD on the SG forums.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Sat 31 Jan 2009 - 0:49

Quote :
Uh, STR 4 attack, which is what pistols are.
Otherwise, how would having a pistol in your hand grant you an extra
attack on the first round besides shooting it? Hitting with it? How
else would you determine an extra attack at Strength 4?

And you explain using WS to resolve the attacks how?

We've always played that braces of pistols add 2x str4 attacks to your base attacks for the first round.
Doesn't make any sense to buy them otherwise, especially once you have more than that many base attacks or get str 5 or more.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Sat 31 Jan 2009 - 5:17

I think the best solution to this classic problem is to allow the hero to drop the pistol after firing it. So if you have A2, two pistols and a Sword you could get 2 pistol attacks and 1 Sword attack. I know it goes against the letter of the rulebook, but it seems the most fair IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistol Attacks in Close Combat   Wed 4 Feb 2009 - 15:21

what he trying to say is, if you really want to be a "by the letter interpretation

it says, he "gains" as in "recieves" an "additional" attack. +1 attack just by "having" the pistol and a close combat weapon.

this so called "attack" is strength 4 and can only be used once during first round.

so "technically" by the letter.. you can always at any given time use your pistol attack(s) every first round of CC.

to make it watertight it should have added this line:

NB: the pistol rules still apply.
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