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 Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?

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MisterA
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PostSubject: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 13:54

Hello Guys,

is it possible for a (Dark Elf) Mage to cast spells while wearing a Sea Dragon Cloak? It is listed in the category "Special Equipment" not "Armor" but it gives a 4+/5+ Save, which qualifies it as armor, at least in my opinion.

What do you think? Is there a FAQ or errata?


Greetz,

Andy
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 13:59

I thought I had something on this, I will check.

Excellent Question.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 14:06

If there is no errata, then by the letter of the law its allowed.

Though I personally think any reasonable player will disallow this.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 14:17

Just because it gives a save doesn't mean its armour. It could be enchanted to act as armour.

I'm curious to the answer of this inquiry as well.

PS nice Buddy Christ avatar Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 14:31

The cloak is made of scales and not metal.

It really is a type of Armor but different.

I will get back with more data as this will be fun one.

Here is some updated info:
This is from 2001 and from the ones who made the DE warband.


> 4) Can Sea Dragon Cloaks be combined with other armour? I think no,
> > but its almost definitley gonna come up sooner or later
> > +++A major revision was made to Sea Dragon Cloaks by the Studio. I
> > will try to get a response on this, but my gut reaction would be to
> > say "yes", and add the line: "A model may not wear a suit of armor or
> > a second cloak when using a SD cloak" Thus, you could use a sheild
> > (giving +1AS), buckler or helmet but not gromril or light armor.
> > Likewise, toughened leathers already say they cannot be combined.
>
>SD cloaks can not be combined with either light or heavy armour.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 15:02

Asp wrote:
Though I personally think any reasonable player will disallow this.

I disagree. I think it's a great option for Dark Elf spell-casters. Gives them a little edge, would look neat on battlefield too. I wouldn't have a problem if a player wanted to use one for his spellcaster. But maybe that's just me.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 15:15

I agree with Ethlorien.
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PostSubject: SDC   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 16:23

If one consider this matter logically a SDC is flung over the shoudelrs, and thus it can hardly prevent the wearer from using armour under it? In WHFB the Cosairs have light Armour and Sea Dragon Cloak right...
As for the matter of spell casters wearing the metal-argument seems quite convincing - all the rules conserning that armour can not be worn by a spell caster seems to be derived from the fact that wearing metallic armour some how prevents the flows of magic - but then again this should really allow thoughened leathers for spell casters - so I guess it's easier to just rule out any armour for spell casters. Still I'm sticking firm to combining SDC and other body armour (and shields/bucklers of course)...
- popmouth
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 16:26

My Problem with it is that Heavy Armor costs 50 GC and slows down a wearer of an additional shield. A SD-cloak only costs 2D6 GC more than Heavy Armor, doesn't slow a shieldbearer and has a better save against range weapons.
In my oppinion it would be too good, if also a mage could cast spells while wearing the cloak. It is more than good even if a caster can't cast.
But that is just my feeling of balance and not based on rules.

Maybe I am totally wrong and a caster with armor is no big deal, but my group just started with a Mordheim campaign some weeks ago and we all are Mordheim newbies searching for balanced rules.


Greetz,

Andy


P.S.: My Avatar is "Jesus Pal" from the movie Dogma (one of my favorite movies). So don't think I am religious Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 16:56

Dark Elves can not get heavy Armor.

I have found some new (old) that changes things up a bit. I emailed some of those who helped develop the DE warband for feedback. I will keep you posted when I get a response or find more data.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 17:37

MisterA wrote:
P.S.: My Avatar is "Jesus Pal" from the movie Dogma (one of my favorite movies). So don't think I am religious Wink

In English, Buddy Christ. I also love that movie.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Sat 10 Jan 2009 - 6:12

Quote :
A model may not wear a suit of armor or a second cloak when using a SD cloak" Thus, you could use a sheild
(giving +1AS), buckler or helmet but not gromril or light armor.
Likewise, toughened leathers already say they cannot be combined.

SD cloaks can not be combined with either light or heavy armour.
Considering this would disallow so many sea-cloak equipped models from being used in Mordheim (in fact I don't recall any seacloak equipped models without some other form of armour) I think that's a tad mean. Although, it is a 5+ combat save and a 4+ shooting sve no? Perhaps modifying it to the 1+ combat save and 2+ shooting save would be a sufficient ruling (house or otherwise)?

Also, I would like to see dark elf spellcasters wearing sea dragon cloaks, the OCD rulesdude in my head says it shouldn't be okay. But I want it to be okay...
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Mon 12 Jan 2009 - 9:51

lucky charms give you a save and they are not armor, so i would take it as not armor, more of just magical assistance
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Mon 12 Jan 2009 - 10:24

I am still waiting on feedback from one of the writers of the DE Warband.

Just some thoughts at the moment: it is something similar to Toughned Leathers and is not stackable and if you did have it stack then it would be very strong(too strong). Elves do not have access to that much armor for a reason.

DE are destined for Lustria and not Mordheim. Keep that in mind.

It seems plausible for a scorcer to wear it as it is not metal.

(Keep in mind I want to hear from one of the writers of the DE warband).
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Tue 13 Jan 2009 - 12:33

I am waiting with you Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Tue 13 Jan 2009 - 13:11

Here's a DE warband from Druchii.net. They've actually got the Sea Dragon cloak listed under armour.

http://druchii.net/monthly/issues/dherald-05-07.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Tue 13 Jan 2009 - 13:14

I am trying. LOL> Let me send out another email to them.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Tue 13 Jan 2009 - 20:51

I found an intersting thread on this.

Those are on the Miscelaneous Equipment list. They can be used by any HERO
who can wear armor. It has been clarified to be Armor for the sake of who
can wear it, and also for spell casting, but it is miscelaneous equipment
for the purposes of wearing it.

Weapons/Armour: The Sorceress may be
armed with weapons and armour chosen from
the Dark Elf Equipment list but they may not
cast spells if wearing armour.


I believe this to be more of just an oversite on explaining it.

This should be counted as Armor thus your magic casting girl would not be able to wear it if they wanted to cast spells.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Thu 15 Jan 2009 - 1:48

Thank you very much for your efforts!


Greetz,

Andy
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Thu 15 Jan 2009 - 6:54

The issues with SDC came up at least weekly on the specialist games forums. If I remember correctly, one mod said that taking the rules literally, you could combine the cloak with armor as it is technically equipment. However, he compared that to the literal interpretation of the mordheim rulebook lance (which gives +4 str on the charge). He said something to the effect that the rules allow it, but he'd punch anyone who tried to play it.

Another mod argued that since it's listed as giving a 5+/4+ save (as opposed to +2/+3 save as shields, barding, etc are written) it is in fact armor.

Since even the mods on the official forums disagreed, the general consensus was: house rule it.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Thu 15 Jan 2009 - 8:06

Though Dark Elves venture to the old world aswell, and I could find it quite possible, especially for corsairs, that they might have intrests in the ruins of Mordheim
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Thu 15 Jan 2009 - 8:30

@Identity...I am one of the MODs. ANSWER_MOD_DABANK
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Thu 15 Jan 2009 - 11:38

Da Bank wrote:
@Identity...I am one of the MODs. ANSWER_MOD_DABANK

Ah, the voice of authority. There's the BOLD type I miss.

DaBank, the Face-Punching Mod.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Thu 15 Jan 2009 - 13:08

No bold, that is how my username was spelled out PER SG as a MOD.

I just retyped it the way it was on the forum. That way it would allow for quick realization. You know, flash backs Wink

Just wanted to let someone know also before they imply the MODs don't agree and can't figure stuff out and etc.

The problem with DE is:
1) The DE are no longer official.
2) The DE Warband was made for Lustria not Mordheim but Mordheimers want to use them in Mordheim.
3) There was no real FAQ published for Lustria to flush out any issues.

About the face punching comment, I will take that as a joke as I am a direct individual.
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PostSubject: Re: Sea Dragon Cloak; Armor yes or no?   Fri 16 Jan 2009 - 6:50

Haha, well hello ANSWER_MOD_DABANK (I thought Da Bank sounded awfully familiar).

I meant no offense in saying that the SG mods disagreed. I was more trying to illustrate that no official errata had been made for the cloak (thus you mods were unable to give a definite answer) and that if ever there were an appropriate time to create a house rule with your group, this would be it.

The initial face punching comment was made and received in good humor (and the threats may have been directed at a different part of the body).
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