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 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.

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zettel
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PostSubject: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 12:44

Hi there,

hope Im posting in the right forum, so if Im not, please dear mods, don't be mad, just move me...

The subject I want to talk about seems to be a touchy subject, but I'll try anyway...

We are about to start a new Mordheim campaign and we have one player that really would like to play elves, for the fluff of it but we all agree in the point that we think the shadow warriors list is overpowered. I got an idea from the old specialist games forum, where a guy proposed to use only 3 models (the leader, the mage and one of the champs) and not ever have more members.

This, we thought, looked a bit too hard, so we were thinking about the following solution:

- You can only take the heroes, making your effective max. warband size 5
- No rehiring. A dead elf is a dead elf.

This for us looks like an interessting and fluffy solution to the elf problem. We would like to hear some feedback though. Are we too harsh to the pointy ears? Aren't we harsh enough? Have you tried sth. similar and if yes, what expiriences did you make?

P.S.: If it makes any difference, we will be playing in a city scenery with quite a few of terrain.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 13:01

Quote :
- No rehiring. A dead elf is a dead elf.

well you almost make me all soft-hearted there Very Happy

i think it sounds fair, even though a lot of people is probably going to tell you that this is too hard on the elves.

i think that if people want to play elves in a game where they do not belong, they should not be expected to play in the same manner as everyone else.

Quote :

QUOTE: "[Elves] have deliberately been left off the list as they are, in their current form, entirely inappropriate for Mordheim." KILDE: Games Workshop, 'Commentary on Official Warbands' p. 13

that said, i still think your restrictions will be subject to the normal dreary one-sided ness of playing against elves: they climb buildings and shoot. you spend the entire game getting close and they rout. :/
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zettel
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 13:12

Asp,

I do know your standing on elves. And I really don't want this thread to be the same "should elves be in Mordheim or not" ranting we had at the SG forums. We think elves belong in Mordheim and I think this is reason ENOUGH for them to be there! We just want to ensure that they are playable and fair and as a group of grown ups that do not have to prove anything to anyone by winning in a table-top game I think "the problem of the normal dreary one-sided ness of playing against elves" will not arise.

Sorry for the long rant. I just HATE it when people just push their personal opinion when it's well known anyways and also when it's not asked for in this particular case.
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Asp
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 13:32

actually, i was trying to be objective an impersonal by giving you my thoughts on what would happen (i.e. one-sidedness).

but if what you are saying is, that your player will not play the elves in the manner of arming them all with bows and climbing buildings they you are also saying that he will not attempt to use the rules to the fullest of his advantage. - then, what you are in fact saying is, that the rules don't really matter, because the player will play in a balanced manner because he is a "grown up that do not have to prove anything to anyone". If that is so, then by your own argument it won't actually matter what the upper power-level of the list you offer him will be, only the lower, as according to you he we not min/max his possibilities.

what *I* was trying to say was that the setup you propose seems fair to me (bordering on underpowered). and that even if the setup is underpowered, the best tactic for that warband and setup would be to max out on range and avoid close combat all together, which would equal a one-sided game.

---

anyway. you might consider offering the elf player the possibility of hiring normal humans (25gc 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7) as his elves die.
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 13:34

hmm well my experience was that they where overpowered, but I think having 3 to 5 elves in a warband could solve the problem, you could always try to play a campaign like that, and if it doesn't work find another solution Smile
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zettel
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 13:40

I still think there is a difference in playing a warband with restraints and using their possibilities (meaning: high movement, good bs, ability to hide better) to their full possible extent and camping in a building stalling the game and being an imature idiot about it....

I'm sorry that I reort to language like that, I really don't know where all this agression is coming from, so maybe I'll just stop arguing at this point and wait for what the other people have to say.

Concerning the point with hiring humans : I really think that's pretty unfluffy (and so does my friend who wants to play the elves, who's sitting next to me right now and says hi to everyone)
Its better to lose in style (one last lone elf seeking revenge for his dead commerades, that's what geek dramas are made of Wink )
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 14:06

Zettel...Shadow Warriors are not overpowered. I have been involved with Mordheim since its inception Fall of 1999.

I fully understand SW are "unofficial" but that was due to the fact they were going to be revisited and more thought given.

I have played against this warband many times and I find them a dwarf styled warband. Meaning they love to shoot.

Which is worse shooting dwarves or shooty elves? Dwarves as they have a higher Toughness and Hard to kILL RULE.

Back to your question, yes. I believe Ram Rock tried something like that but there really is no need. Mordheim is about out thinking the other warband and hopefully, just hopefully your dice rolls go in your favor.

I can attest that every warband ever published in the rulebook and Town Cryers is playable and workable.

Please understand this I HATE THE ELVES but they are not that big of a deal that everyone or most make them out to be.

Contact me on the side if you want as there are a lot of ELF Haters out there who can not get past HATE and playability.

ANSWER MOD DABANK from the SG Forums.
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 15:18

DaBank: *whine* but dwarves don't outrun my clubmen! *whine*
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 15:23

I've never had an issue with Elves being overpowered. They're fine the way they are, it's the players who possibly take them too far.

One option, if you feel the need to 'fix' them: why not take away bows from them? It seems the biggest complaint about elves is their shooting ability. So, just ask the player to try with no shooting, or hero only shooting or something. Come up with a fluff reason if you'd like (Elves are too haughty to use an ugly Mordheim-crafted bow).

I'd try that before you take away all the player's troops.
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 15:26

Quote :
try with no shooting

that'd be so cool! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Sat 10 Jan 2009 - 1:04

Elves with out bows?

Absolutely not.

Elves without Sniper?

Shoot em in the head.
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Sat 10 Jan 2009 - 9:01

I have to agree with Da Bank on this one. In the two Mordheim groups I've played with, we have never had problems with Shadow Warriors. If anything, Dwarfs were a much more difficult warband to play against, as they were basically a shooty warband whose members were almost impossible to remove with missile fire thanks to their high toughness and their 'hard to kill' rule.
On a table that is full of terrain - as both the groups I've played in have always believed Mordheim should be - shooting is a very, very tactical game.
Just my opinion - with no elf-hating or elf-loving ( Shocked ) involved!
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Sat 10 Jan 2009 - 12:36

Also, with a bit of imagination you could absolutely fit some elves into mordheim - why, maybe one of there elven kins was kidnapped into the ruins, or perhaps the usage and spreading of wyrdstone affects also the world of elves, thus they would like to gain control over it, or prevent others from using these powerfull stones.
Can someone please explain WHY they do not fit the city of Mordheim?

Considering elven history, it's quite logical that they should be slightly more elite than the rest... but I'd say, House rule to a maximum of 8 warriors instead of the 12 that's now... seems to fit the elven character as well.
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Sat 10 Jan 2009 - 12:54

why not just use them without any of the elf only skills that comes with the warband? stops the hide skill etc. or make it that only the heroes can use the fancier bows, the normal elves can only use longbows or normal bows?

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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Sun 11 Jan 2009 - 4:20

Please note that these feeble comments from moi are based on a purely fluff basis; I'm NOT a rules Guy. Also note that my comments in a derogatory way about Elves is rather a bit of staying in character as a Pro Goblin person; the Wood Elf, Dark Elf, & some of the High Elf minis ROCK. SO...

All the various races in Mordheim & WHFB, have strengths & weaknesses which both balance the game & add charater to the races. I don't feel it's nececessary to modify any of them for games play purposes. The point/cost factor take care of the games play aspect & deleting abilities or lack therof would rather destroy the character aspect of the race.

I really don't see from a fluff viewpoint why the Dark or High Elves would be drawn to or be particularly interested in Mordheim other than being an enigmatic folk with their own agenda. The Wood Elf contingent, however is a totally different story. As environmentally concerned individuals rumored to inhabit the Forests of the Old World in secret enclaves, I could see them operating in the Empire In Flames setting & possibly drawn to investigate the disturbing magical surges eminating from the City of the Damned. I suppose the Shadow Elf rules would work fairly well with Wood Elves; if you ignore the kinkier traits of the Dark Ones, an Elf is pretty much an Elf whether High, Dark, Woodsy or Shadowy [I won't mention the pointy eared, odd smelling traits or the rumor of dubious sexual practices Suspect ].

On a purely modeling/painting thing, the Shadow Elf project ROCKS! That's my two cents worth [for whaterev it's worth Suspect ]. Like ALL opinions the above comments should be taken cum grano salo. geek
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PostSubject: Re: 5 Shadow Warriors and a Mordheim campaign.   Mon 12 Jan 2009 - 4:27

I love elves in mordheim, the more different races in a campaign the better!
I was thinking about the uber shootie elven armys, why dont you use the folowing rule (I give my self this rule with every warband) no more than 50% of your warriors may be armed with ranged weapons (exluding pistols...???)
This makes sure you always walk around with a ballanced warband with a lot of different armed warriors (a littele bit harder with elves because they have a limited weapon list).

Hope it is of some use.
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