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PostSubject: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 11:04

Just some Q&A, technically not a warband build thread as I'm also asking about rules and whatnot etc. in regards to the BTB Orges Warband!!!

Okay, first up, highly tempted to take the Ogre Club. However, one rule is that I cannot gain one of it's benefits (the extra +1 in regards to parrying) if I am using another weapon with the ogre club. Now, were there a normal club/mace/hammer in the list I'd probably just get an axe and hammer/mace/club, but there isn't.

Anywho, just wondering if you guys think it's worth it? I mean, without the two weapons = -1 WS or whatever "house ruling" it'd potentially just be better to get an extra attack by buying two axes. If it was more like say, a one-handed halberd with concussion (thus, Granting the +1 Strength permenantly) provided you only used it alone in combat I totally would take it.

Also, ironfist. Basically a spiked gauntlet from the pit fighter warband, but better? You can have two and re-roll parries, although a sword has the same effect... but either way re-rolling parries. At the same cost as the Pit Fighter spiked gauntlet. This seems like an awesome weapon and I want it alot.
HOWEVER I have noticed that the gloved special rule kinda seems almost unecessary. Since Ogres can't use daggers/knives, and a model can only carry two close combat weapons unless the ogre has a great weapon the gloved rule doesn't effect him. Theoretically, shouldn't it also prevent ranged weapons being equipped?

Sorry, ranting a bit too much on equipment here.

Anyways, what would anyone advise for me? I obviously want max heroes for my list but as all their special equipment minus the harpoon crossbow and hand-held mortar are common, so I can buy them anytime with no penalty (unlike my skaven warband, which makes me buy gear at the beginning). But, at the same time, it's harder for ogres to buy equipment and make less money from their size meaning they gain less income overall.

And, in regards to their experience gain, how do I ensure ogre heroes get what they need to get ahead? Half the gain discourages me from getting more ogres (so experience focused on some models), but I want more ogres because I just do Razz

How do I go about it?
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werekin
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PostSubject: Re: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Fri 9 Jan 2009 - 19:33

Quote :
Okay, first up, highly tempted to take the Ogre Club. However, one rule is that I cannot gain one of it's benefits (the extra +1 in regards to parrying) if I am using another weapon with the ogre club. Now, were there a normal club/mace/hammer in the list I'd probably just get an axe and hammer/mace/club, but there isn't.
There is a reason why the item you have queried has been omitted. Ogres don't use clubs*, they use Ogre clubs*!

The crushing blow from an Ogre club is optional. If your warrior fights with a 2nd hand weapon then the crushing blow effect is ignored.

*A club can also be defined/represented with a staff/mace/hammer or if you wish to be creative your model may wield other blunt implements.

Quote :
Anywho, just wondering if you guys think it's worth it? I mean, without the two weapons = -1 WS or whatever "house ruling" it'd potentially just be better to get an extra attack by buying two axes. If it was more like say, a one-handed halberd with concussion (thus, Granting the +1 Strength permenantly) provided you only used it alone in combat I totally would take it.
Your answer here depends on circumstances Fallen. How highly do you rate the ability to negate your opponents parrying ability for instance.

Quote :
Also, ironfist. Basically a spiked gauntlet from the pit fighter warband, but better? You can have two and re-roll parries, although a sword has the same effect... but either way re-rolling parries.
A sword & iron fist has the same effect as 2x iron fists, and is of course cheaper (probably why you don't see many models released with 2x spiked gauntlets!) but the point is that if you have 2x iron fists then a warrior can use them both.

Quote :
At the same cost as the Pit Fighter spiked gauntlet. This seems like an awesome weapon and I want it alot.
It is better than having a sword & buckler. It is better than having 2x swords.

Quote :
HOWEVER I have noticed that the gloved special rule kinda seems almost unecessary. Since Ogres can't use daggers/knives, and a model can only carry two close combat weapons unless the ogre has a great weapon the gloved rule doesn't effect him.
You understand this perfectly. The iron fist counts as one of the 2x close combat weapons allowed. The warrior is unable to carry a two-handed weapon if wearing the iron first.

Quote :
Theoretically, shouldn't it also prevent ranged weapons being equipped?
Getting straight to the point Fallen. Missile weapons are not (usually) close combat weapons.

Quote :
Sorry, ranting a bit too much on equipment here.

Anyways, what would anyone advise for me? I obviously want max heroes for my list but as all their special equipment minus the harpoon crossbow and hand-held mortar are common, so I can buy them anytime with no penalty (unlike my skaven warband, which makes me buy gear at the beginning). But, at the same time, it's harder for ogres to buy equipment and make less money from their size meaning they gain less income overall.

And, in regards to their experience gain, how do I ensure ogre heroes get what they need to get ahead? Half the gain discourages me from getting more ogres (so experience focused on some models), but I want more ogres because I just do Razz

How do I go about it?
I could offer many more tips than have already been offered in the BTB preview releases but that would spoil all the fun Fallen. You can find all that out for yourself by playing some games and making some mistakes! That is part of the fun of playing Mordheim. More so than any other warband I have seen so far, that is what the Ogres are all about (and rightly so).

Regards,

Werekin.
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PostSubject: Re: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Sat 10 Jan 2009 - 12:57

Quote :
Quote :
Okay, first up, highly tempted to take the Ogre Club. However, one rule is that I cannot gain one of it's benefits (the extra +1 in regards to parrying) if I am using another weapon with the ogre club. Now, were there a normal club/mace/hammer in the list I'd probably just get an axe and hammer/mace/club, but there isn't.
There is a reason why the item you have queried has been omitted. Ogres don't use clubs*, they use Ogre clubs*!

The crushing blow from an Ogre club is optional. If your warrior fights with a 2nd hand weapon then the crushing blow effect is ignored.

*A club can also be defined/represented with a staff/mace/hammer or if you wish to be creative your model may wield other blunt implements.
HOWEVER the ogre hired sword can carry regular clubs, and by giving the BTB ogres no regular clubs kinda changes the timeline of the Mordheim game, as it was designed at the time of the previous ogres, not the gut-plated eat everything maw worshippers we have today. If updating these ogres is the true intention, then why are there no handguns available (usable as pistols) for the leader?

Quote :
Quote :
Also, ironfist. Basically a spiked gauntlet from the pit fighter warband, but better? You can have two and re-roll parries, although a sword has the same effect... but either way re-rolling parries.
A sword & iron fist has the same effect as 2x iron fists, and is of course cheaper (probably why you don't see many models released with 2x spiked gauntlets!) but the point is that if you have 2x iron fists then a warrior can use them both.
Actually, I'm not sure two spiked gauntlets allows re-rolling parries. I know this wouldn't be a common occurence, but if an ogre happened to be using two iron gauntlets granting him a re-roll to parry for using weapons of circumstance seems unfair as iron gauntlets are not weapons made for dual-wielding them? I'm not sure I'm wording this correctly...

Quote :
Quote :
HOWEVER I have noticed that the gloved special rule kinda seems almost unecessary. Since Ogres can't use daggers/knives, and a model can only carry two close combat weapons unless the ogre has a great weapon the gloved rule doesn't effect him.
Getting straight to the point Fallen. Missile weapons are not (usually) close combat weapons.
My argument is that, as the ironfist seems to be unable to be removed, then how would an ogre operate a usually two-handed missile weapon? Wouldn't it also prevent the use of a two-handed missile weapon (or, in effect, two missile weapons) in addition to the use of a two-handed close combat weapon?

EDIT: Actually, in regards to the iron gauntlet, if I have one on an ogre and an ogre club, can I choose to only fight with an ogre club in a combat to gain it's bonus, or am I unable to because the iron gauntlet (although not being used in combat) is equipped?

Other than that, I don't really have any queries... will come up with a warband draft soon potentially (Ogre Pirates themed specifically).
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PostSubject: Re: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Sun 11 Jan 2009 - 15:51

Quote :
HOWEVER the ogre hired sword can carry regular clubs, and by giving the BTB ogres no regular clubs kinda changes the timeline of the Mordheim game, as it was designed at the time of the previous ogres, not the gut-plated eat everything maw worshippers we have today. If updating these ogres is the true intention, then why are there no handguns available (usable as pistols) for the leader?
There is no intention to update Ogres as you describe, and Hired Swords equipment bears no relevance to the equipment carried by other warriors of the same race. i.e. Why can a Kislevite fire a pistol when a Norseman cannot.

Handguns are not pistols and vice versa. The scale of ogre weapons is not discussed in the rules in the sense you have suggested. That would be too confusing and inevitably detract from the Mordheim experience. Ogre warbands have two appropriately themed missile weapon to use. If you want to shoot at things full-time Fallen then buy some elves. Wink

Quote :
My argument is that, as the ironfist seems to be unable to be removed, then how would an ogre operate a usually two-handed missile weapon? Wouldn't it also prevent the use of a two-handed missile weapon (or, in effect, two missile weapons) in addition to the use of a two-handed close combat weapon?
If it worked like that then it would say so in the rules. It doesn't so you don't need to worry about it.* The rules state that two-handed close combat weapons cannot be used by a character with an Iron Fist.

*I can see you are still worried about it. Imagine that an Ogre is the proud owner of a spiked gauntlet. He isn't going to want to slip it off his hand when he gets into close combat. Of course he would be wearing it! Ogres don't have much common sense, but if the same ogre had a missile weapon to fire or reload then he might realise that a chainmail glove covering his fist would need to be temporarily removed to achieve the job.

Quote :
EDIT: Actually, in regards to the iron gauntlet, if I have one on an ogre and an ogre club, can I choose to only fight with an ogre club in a combat to gain it's bonus, or am I unable to because the iron gauntlet (although not being used in combat) is equipped?
If the rules state that two-handed weapon bonuses are not permitted in close combat when a warrior is using an Iron Fist, then the answer is no.

Regards,

Stuart.
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PostSubject: Re: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Sun 11 Jan 2009 - 16:05

There seems to be some confusion based upon the Warhammer rules not being the same as Mordheim rules. I would like to point out that the Hired Sword Ogre has no bearing on the Maneater warband. Not all ogres come from the Ogre Kingdoms. Take, for example, the ogres in the new Warriors of Chaos book. They are not the same as the ogres in the Ogre Kingdoms book. They have different equipment options, and do not have the Bull Charge rule. They are different ogres. Their culture is different.

It is highly likely the Hired Sword in the Mordheim book is an Imperial Ogre, one who was born and raised in the Old World and therefore uses the common customs and weapons that he knows about.

The Maneater warband is very blatant about being from the Ogre kingdoms/Cathay region and therefore more closely follows the rules presented in the Ogre kingdom army book. Note, however, that Mordheim is a different game and therefore the rules cannot be ported straight over as it would adversely affect game balance.
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PostSubject: Re: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Sun 11 Jan 2009 - 16:16

catferret wrote:
There seems to be some confusion based upon the Warhammer rules not being the same as Mordheim rules. I would like to point out that the Hired Sword Ogre has no bearing on the Maneater warband. Not all ogres come from the Ogre Kingdoms. Take, for example, the ogres in the new Warriors of Chaos book. They are not the same as the ogres in the Ogre Kingdoms book. They have different equipment options, and do not have the Bull Charge rule. They are different ogres. Their culture is different.

It is highly likely the Hired Sword in the Mordheim book is an Imperial Ogre, one who was born and raised in the Old World and therefore uses the common customs and weapons that he knows about.

The Maneater warband is very blatant about being from the Ogre kingdoms/Cathay region and therefore more closely follows the rules presented in the Ogre kingdom army book. Note, however, that Mordheim is a different game and therefore the rules cannot be ported straight over as it would adversely affect game balance.

Couldn't have said it any better thumbsup

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PostSubject: Re: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Sun 11 Jan 2009 - 16:29

What can I say? I'm an ogre nerd. Laughing

Got an Ogre Kingdoms army and play Chaos as well. Always try to hire one in Mordheim. Played an ogre in WFRP once too. Probably just because they are very similar to us Scotsmen, grumpy, drunk and like their food.
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PostSubject: Re: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Sun 11 Jan 2009 - 16:40

catferret wrote:
Probably just because they are very similar to us Scotsmen, grumpy, drunk and like their food.

lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Maneaters - Advanced Warband Tactical Discussion   Sun 11 Jan 2009 - 20:44

Haggis is not food. Wink
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