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 Second rout test?

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Popmouth
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PostSubject: Second rout test?   Thu 11 Dec 2008 - 10:59

Im not sure if you can find this in the rulebook but after you've overcome the first Rout test, when you've lost 25% when do you test again? At the beginning of each turn after that, or next time you lose 25% of the remaining models?
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Thu 11 Dec 2008 - 11:10

I'm pretty sure its at the beginning of every turn after. study
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Thu 11 Dec 2008 - 11:40

Kurgan is right - once you start having to take rout tests, you're in trouble. That's why the rout threshold is so important. In other words, it's why it's so important to try to get at least nine models into a starting warband. Interestingly, I've rarely managed to build up a warband to 13 models. Poor post-game rolls are mostly to blame, but poor tactics are still a factor... Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Thu 11 Dec 2008 - 11:42

WarbossKurgan wrote:
I'm pretty sure its at the beginning of every turn after. study

Yes. This in fact does cause confusion in many gaming groups and I've often heard of people playing it wrong. Once you have lost 25% you test in every turn. Everything else would end in very annoying calculations.

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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Mon 15 Dec 2008 - 12:19

Hawkeye wrote:
Kurgan is right - once you start having to take rout tests, you're in trouble. That's why the rout threshold is so important. In other words, it's why it's so important to try to get at least nine models into a starting warband. Interestingly, I've rarely managed to build up a warband to 13 models. Poor post-game rolls are mostly to blame, but poor tactics are still a factor... Embarassed

Just to clarrify as reading the responses it was answered then not answered and confused.

Once you begin taking tests, at the beginning of each of your turns, before anything else happens, you roll the rout test. If you fail, you rout and that's it for your warband in the game.

I disagree of the whole it being important to have 9 members minimum. It's all in the style and skill in which an opponent plays that determines who routs when. I've played bands of 3 members in many differing warbands, and alot of things can be done to reduce the effects of routing such as warhorns and lucky rabbits feet and holy relics, and I'm sure there are others.

Cheers,

Ram.
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Mon 15 Dec 2008 - 20:43

True, Ram, but don't the rules say you can't buy extra equipment for a starting warband? Actually, if it doesn't, then I've been playing it wrong for years!
If that's what the rules say, though, then your first (and possibly second or third) game could be a dangerous one. Also, with only three models in a warband, you're only rolling three exploration dice (or four if you win...). I've always felt that it's best to max out on heroes in a starting warband.

Of course, if everybody played the same way, it wouldn't be much fun!
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 1:08

Hawkeye wrote:
True, Ram, but don't the rules say you can't buy extra equipment for a starting warband? Actually, if it doesn't, then I've been playing it wrong for years!
If that's what the rules say, though, then your first (and possibly second or third) game could be a dangerous one. Also, with only three models in a warband, you're only rolling three exploration dice (or four if you win...). I've always felt that it's best to max out on heroes in a starting warband.

Of course, if everybody played the same way, it wouldn't be much fun!

I agree with everything you just said, Hawkeye.

Few Heroes mean less exploration dice. I really don't see a point in a 3-model-warband because there's - obviously - only disadvantages to it.

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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 2:47

Hawkeye wrote:
you're only rolling three exploration dice (or four if you win...)

Wait a sec, I've totally missed this rule... do you get an extra dice in exp. when you win?'


O wait, just found that rule... that's great... ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 2:50

Popmouth wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
you're only rolling three exploration dice (or four if you win...)

Wait a sec, I've totally missed this rule... do you get an extra dice in exp. when you win?

Yes, the winning warband rolls an additional dice in the exploration phase. So if you have only one poor lonely henchman standing and the enemy fails his Rout test with four Heroes on the board, you still are the winner and get the +1 exploration dice. This is detailed in the exploration section.

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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 3:51

Huh. Appears that rule is a changed, 'Living Rulebook' rule... in the OLD book, winning merely lets you reroll once.
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 4:08

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Huh. Appears that rule is a changed, 'Living Rulebook' rule... in the OLD book, winning merely lets you reroll once.

Now I had to look this up:

Printed rulebook, page 134: "Roll 1D6 for each of your Heroes who survived
the battle and one extra dice if you won".

This was never changed.

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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 4:33

Hawkeye wrote:
True, Ram, but don't the rules say you can't buy extra equipment for a starting warband? Actually, if it doesn't, then I've been playing it wrong for years!
If that's what the rules say, though, then your first (and possibly second or third) game could be a dangerous one. Also, with only three models in a warband, you're only rolling three exploration dice (or four if you win...). I've always felt that it's best to max out on heroes in a starting warband.

Of course, if everybody played the same way, it wouldn't be much fun!

Not in startingw arbands no. From the second game onwards yes. Though Shadow Elves have access to the Warhorn as a starting item so one in there can work nicely especially as they have such a high leadership already.

Quote :

StyrofoamKing Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 11:51

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Huh. Appears that rule is a changed, 'Living Rulebook' rule... in the OLD book, winning merely lets you reroll once.

Page 134, the written rulebook under Procedure for exploration, point 1) Rolla dice for each of your heroes that survived tyhe battle plus 1 if you won.

No idea what edition you have Dave, though it could be a differing country thing, though you're from the U.S. so no idea where that happened.

I just cracked another window to confirm that and cianty has just answered the above also, which I was compelled to check up on too. Smile

To the thoughts on this:

Quote :
cianty

Quote :


Hawkeye wrote:
True, Ram, but don't the rules say you can't buy extra equipment for a starting warband? Actually, if it doesn't, then I've been playing it wrong for years!
If that's what the rules say, though, then your first (and possibly second or third) game could be a dangerous one. Also, with only three models in a warband, you're only rolling three exploration dice (or four if you win...). I've always felt that it's best to max out on heroes in a starting warband.

Of course, if everybody played the same way, it wouldn't be much fun!


I agree with everything you just said, Hawkeye.

Few Heroes mean less exploration dice. I really don't see a point in a 3-model-warband because there's - obviously - only disadvantages to it.

Less exploration doesn't matter, a rabbits foot each, a set of Tarot Cards each, and any of the several other re-roll options for exploration and you're swimming witha great exploration phase outright. Yes your opponents can do likewise but you've all focused purely on the exploration phase nopt the fact that your starting warband is likely going to have underdog experience from the first game and possibly onwards. Your 3 warriors max out on advancement way faster then your opponents and the more you play the faster they advance. Having 3 guys maxed at 90 experience 11-12 games intoa campaign is just brilliant. You aren't playing to win, you're playing the advanced game, it's all about eliminating the choice targets of an enemy and when you've got say 3 shadow elves each focused on a differing role you can do this in spades. Purposely eliminating opponents heroes equalisers your exploration phase and at most you'll be losing 1 or 2 warriors before you voluntarily rout anyways because you need to increase your effectiveness by minimising the amount of your warriors that are exposed to injury rolls each game. Small warbands are NOT for new players, I'll say that now. You're gonna voluntarily rout ALOT especially early on, but the advantage is, you can have almost EVERYTHING off of the starting list you want, it all gets down to playing smart with the list and taking as many options as you can, so if a mage is an optional hero (or say an auger or an engineer) something that gives you more flexibility, you TAKE that flexibility. Every single little advantage you HAVE to milk. In sum, it's a power gamingw arband that no one bats an eyelid at till they play you and realise that they aren't playing some random who is stupidly playing 3 guys against his 18 or 20, but is in fact, a chap who has 3 guys that is beating those 18-20 guys purely because of how well developed they are and how truely heroic they are used. It takes alot of skill and alot of patience as well as accepting defeat alot early on to play such a small warband, but the look on opponents faces when you turn up with a warband witha rating of 195 and they have 400+ and you can't advance any further and still manage to beat them is priceless.

Luke.

P.S. I should probably write an article on small warbands and their proper use at some point, could even work in photographic examples as well of advanced tactics as it appears you lads have not actually come up against such a warband before. Overlapping fire arcs, a pretty standard approach to any warband does not look like much with 1 guy covering another 8 inches away but when it's an assassin adept or a dark elf and both have throwing knives, eagle eyes, knife fighter and dark venom possibly crimson shade coursing through their bodies and base strength 4, you are starting to rape people in rapid succession at a point where the opponent is only just starting to sepcialise witha few of their warband. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 7:04

Ah. Well, I see what you're talking about (under Exploration Procedure)... the part I was looking at was in the previous column, second paragraph down. "Roll a D6 for each hero in your warband who survives without going out of action. This represents..." "...If you won your last game, you may reroll any one dice, but you must accept the second result". This part is rewritten in the living rulebook.

Oh, and if you don't believe me, I'm afraid I don't have a scanner. Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 7:22

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Ah. Well, I see what you're talking about (under Exploration Procedure)... the part I was looking at was in the previous column, second paragraph down. "Roll a D6 for each hero in your warband who survives without going out of action. This represents..." "...If you won your last game, you may reroll any one dice, but you must accept the second result". This part is rewritten in the living rulebook.

Oh, and if you don't believe me, I'm afraid I don't have a scanner. Neutral

Weird Suspect

I have a scan of the original English printed rulebook here and it does say (in the paragraph you refer to): "...four dice. If you won your last game, you may roll one extra dice. Add the result...". Maybe this scan is from another printed edition? I think the book was printed and sold in a slightly corrected version later on.

Still, in the German rulebook I have here (which was released along with the original box on day one) it does say extra dice, too. Maybe they fixed the error when translating it?

EDIT: Ok, in the back of the scanned book it says: "Reprinted with corrections Autumn 1999" so this was indeed corrected in the second edition and they translated it correctly for the foreign releases.

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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 8:12

Yay! So I'm NOT crazy! (or at least, not proven yet) clown
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 12:21

That IS weird - about the 'if you won the last game' rule. I must check that.

As for the small warband thing - as I said, I suppose it's a personal thing, Ram Rock. I have atrociously bad luck, so if I were to take a three model warband, I'd lose one of them permanently after the first game - then where would I be? I almost ALWAYS roll 'Dead' when one of my heroes is taken out of action. It's almost inevitable.

There's the other thing, though. You have three models. Let's assume they're all heroes. You can't voluntarily rout until you've lost enough models to force a rout test, which means you're talking about taking a voluntary rout and only having TWO heroes to roll dice for in the exploration phase. How on earth are you able to afford all this kit you're talking about when you're only rolling two exploration dice? I really can't see how this would work.

Quite apart from this is that, again, it's clearly an issue of personal taste, and this includes gameplay. The sort of game you're describing doesn't sound very...well, very interesting. I LIKE to have exchanges of missile fire and some good rounds of close combat. What you're describing sounds like waiting the opponent out. Also, we always play multiplayer games (with anything from 3 to 6 players), and the sort of game you're describing simply doesn't happen. A three model warband in a multi-player game would be in trouble, I think.

Oh, and I've NEVER got models to the sort of experience levels you're talking about. I'd love it, but it's never happened yet, although I do see your point about the experience advancement of small warbands.
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PostSubject: Re: Second rout test?   Tue 16 Dec 2008 - 15:44

Hawkeye wrote:
Oh, and I've NEVER got models to the sort of experience levels you're talking about. I'd love it, but it's never happened yet, although I do see your point about the experience advancement of small warbands.

I'd have to agree there. 90 experience in 12 games would be nearly 6 XP a game (20 starting XP). A hero starting with 8 xp would be nearer to 7 XP a game. That's nearly 15 experience for the band (as a a whole) a game; outside of surviving and winning. I've not seen anyone average that well...

Heck, I've had a couple of experience fests recently, and not earned that much with a 7 model band.

Of course, if you have a small enough band, I guess the Underdog XP adds up quickly. Of course, it would also mean you're catching up to the other bands, and losing that bonus faster as well.

But my personal history isn't the greatest comparison. My band ahs been beat up; once at 11 models, it now hovers consistently at 7 (Buy a new guy, have a guy die...), and was at a point down to 2 heroes. I need all the heroes I can muster to just recoup losses. affraid
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