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 Throwing Axes!

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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Throwing Axes!   Mon 24 Nov 2008 - 15:46

Throwing Axes have occured in Mordheim twice: with the Lustrian Norse Warband (where they counted as throwng knives), and the Beasthunter Hired Sword (who gains +1 Strength).

Personally, I am interested as I've been working on a Slayer Cult Warband, and the current rules I'm using for them are as follows:

THROWING AXES- Counts as Throwing Knives. Uses the skill 'Axe Thrower' instead of Knife Thrower'.

AXE THROWER- May throw two axes each shooting phase, if the model did not move. Both axe throws cause a -1 to Armor save. May not be used with Quickshot.

I am not too interested in creating new rules for throwing axes (I've playtested the above, and they work for me), but a Throwing axe that was +1 Strength seems like it could be TOO powerful, unless restricted. A single Hired sword is not going to make it unfair, but a group of heroes throwing 2 axes each might make them unbalanced.

So, some ideas/restrictions for those who like the +1 Strength Idea:
~ Starts same as Throwing Knives. Cannot be used with Axe or Knife Thrower, but can learn an Axe skill (Seismic Throw) that grants +1 when throwing.
~A Seismic Throw skill that grants +1 Strength, but cannot be used WITH Axe thrower (meaning they get to pick: two normal throws, or one strong throw.)
~The +1 only applies at half range - 2" normal, 5" with eagle eye.
~Can be stacked with Mighty Blow (thus, grants +1 Strength, but only if the hero has the other skill.)

While on the subject, part of me wanted to include a Throwing Hammer (the Hammer Thrower skill would give you two throws, that cause concussion), but that's for another time. Was saving that for the Athel Loren campaign master was talking about. Orc Shaman sleeping
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Mon 24 Nov 2008 - 22:59

Well, I'm of the opinion that throwing axes will do more damage than a knife at the cost of weight of fire. The axe-thrower skill seems reasonable though. Throwing an axe from each hand would be ok, I have many fond memories of doing that in Diablo 2. Just not the knifethrower 3 shots per turn thing.

I wouldn't bother with the armour piercing ability, I think the +1 strength is adequate.

Bear in mind that the axe thrower skill won't be available to warbands with throwing axes on their equipment list, so the abundance of double-throwers will be limited to warbands with access to shooting skills and therefore the weapon master skill to allow them to use the aforementioned throwing axe. This then applies a natural limiter of heroes having to decide if they want to take multiple skills just to be able to throw a short ranged weapon better. Surely buying pistols would be a better choice in many cases?

Norse and Marauders do not have any access to the shooting skills tables. And I'd be struggling to find an excuse for slayers to learn shooting skills I'm afraid.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.

p.s. I've played Norse and am now making a Marauder band and sorely wish I had access to the shooting skills but thems the breaks. Wink

I would also like to see Marauder heroes with access to throwing axes, just because it would look cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Tue 25 Nov 2008 - 4:25

As you rightly guessed, the Axe Thrower skill is only available to heroes with access to Shooting Skills. My Slayer Warband has only two heroes with access to Shooting Skills (called Axe Hurlers), and they already add distance to thrown weapons equal to their Strength (ex. St = +3 inches of range. High eagle eye and a strength increase, they can potentially reach 16".) All of the Slayers also have a restriction that they are not allowed to use any missile weapon that isn't thrown.

Oh, and as far WHY it's a good idea to have Slayers with shooting skills?
~Low Movement (3)
~Low Initiative
~No access to Sprint or Climbing skills

They move so ooslow, and they can only climb 3". They need to give 'em a way to fight against sniper warbands, even if it's a slight bonus.
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werekin
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Tue 25 Nov 2008 - 18:39

Oh crumbs, do I need to copy/paste my previous post here!? LoL.

Interesting spot regarding the Beast Hunter's throwing axes Styro. This straight-up contradicts what we have in Cities of Gold. What is evident is that anything written in EiF will supersede any previous unofficial rules.

This still leave the matter of (re-)costing the equipment type.

Overpowered you feared?

1. Not likely as the weapons type has limited range and availability (skill required to throw them if not using Marauders).
2.The cost will be a further hindrance because we are talking upward of 15 gold crowns per model to use them.
3. Neither the Norse or the Marauders of Chaos have access to shooting skills in order to abuse a throwing weapon of any sort.

In light of the inconsistencies with the EiF rules and the Warhammer rules for the weapon type I would like Christian to review this again for BTB.

Regards,

Stu.
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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Tue 25 Nov 2008 - 19:00

Well, Christian's welcome to post on the thread... I just thought I'd shift it over, so it's not distracting the BTB thread.

*this is my welcome face --> cheers *

EDIT:
I did not notice his Marauder warband had access to throwing axes too... very good reason to include him.

as far as overpowering, what would the cost be? If it was an item that granted +1 Strength, and 4" range? 6? Let's hypothesize the costs:

Range 6, +1 Strength= 30?
Range 4, +1 Strength= 25gc?

If either were the case, the corresponding skill (In my head) would be be "May throw two axes each turn, if he doesn't move" So, it's basically a Quickshot.

Of course, the potential max strength is 5 for Dwarves and Norse, and 6 for Marauders that are Chosen. Even without an Axe Throwing Skill, that's pretty darn powerful weapon to wield, meaning we should either raise the price even more, or give up on the +1 bonus.
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Tue 25 Nov 2008 - 21:35

I wouldn'y worry about Marauders become Chosen. First, they need to be "ladded" in order to have access to skills before they become Chosen. Then they need to gain 2 Strength advances to be throwing a S6 weapon. All the while, it is just one shot at range 6. Not a game breaker. I feel that most Chosen will be far better at hand-to-hand where they will likely either be wielding multiple waepons for the extra attacks, or a weapon that further boosts damage like a halberd or great weapon.

Skaven can buy warplock pistols and superior blackpowder for a range 8 S6 attack. Doesn't even require experience, just some cash.

On the subject of costing throwing axes, I feel that the current price is far too steep anyway. (aside: Why are javelins only 5 despite having longer range?) On the other hand, a range 6 S+1 weapon seems reasonable for 15gold. I know I'd rather have a longbow for the same cost if I had the choice.

This issue also applies to throwing knives. It seems to be a problem of pricing a weapon based on skill combinations rather than the innate use of the wepon itself. There's no guarantee you will earn skills, so why apply price based on potential? Surely that is a skills balance issue rather than the fault of the weapon?
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Wed 26 Nov 2008 - 3:50

Throwing Knives: Well, Javelins have penalty for throwing over half range, knives/axes to not. With eagle eye, that gives you the ability to move and shoot 12" with no penalty: not bad.

Cost: A throwing axe is as powerful as a brace of pistols.

BRACE OF PISTOL PROS
ability to fire in combat
-1 Armor Save

THROWING AXE PROS
No long range penalty
potentially reach S5

It balances out, to me. That's 25-30gc worth of power in those weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Wed 26 Nov 2008 - 15:27

Blessing be, Cianty checks this thread. And posts. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Sun 7 Dec 2008 - 13:10

Should be 2x entries in the FAQ section of BTB mentioning throwing axes.

Regards,

Werekin.
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Tue 9 Dec 2008 - 3:23

Where is the Problem? The Slayer in the Dwarf Warband have a special-Skill-table. Take this table and add the single "Throwing"-Skill form the Shooting-Table.
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StyrofoamKing
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Tue 9 Dec 2008 - 8:10

The problem lies in rules should the axe take, and what form should the skill take. Ideally, we'd make it as uniform as we can, so people don't have to cross reference five different 'throwing axe' variations.
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Wed 10 Dec 2008 - 8:28

Essentially there is one set of rules for Throwing Axes, and those can be found in the Cities of Gold supplement.

An alternative blade can be resourced by the savvy adventurer during campaign play (something which I do A LOT of) if the appropriate circumstances should arise...

Regards,

Werekin.
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Mon 15 Dec 2008 - 12:08

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Well, Christian's welcome to post on the thread... I just thought I'd shift it over, so it's not distracting the BTB thread.

*this is my welcome face --> cheers *

EDIT:
I did not notice his Marauder warband had access to throwing axes too... very good reason to include him.

as far as overpowering, what would the cost be? If it was an item that granted +1 Strength, and 4" range? 6? Let's hypothesize the costs:

Range 6, +1 Strength= 30?
Range 4, +1 Strength= 25gc?

If either were the case, the corresponding skill (In my head) would be be "May throw two axes each turn, if he doesn't move" So, it's basically a Quickshot.

Of course, the potential max strength is 5 for Dwarves and Norse, and 6 for Marauders that are Chosen. Even without an Axe Throwing Skill, that's pretty darn powerful weapon to wield, meaning we should either raise the price even more, or give up on the +1 bonus.

I got to this post and decided to not read anymore as I have to go like asap and there is something you're overlooking here.

Crimson Shade and Dark Venom.

Please add 2 strength to those stats you just quoted. Thankyou very much. Smile

Expensive but damned nice.

Look my take on the Throwing axe is you have a 6 inch range, it follows the same rules as all throwing weapons (don't forget stars here) and has +1 strength. The Throwing skill allowing you to throw 2 of the axes instead of 3 so Axe Thrower instead of Knife Fighter acts to balance the extra strength. Even so straight up point for point the axe is more superior to the knife/star without skills so needs to cost more. 20-25gc seems about right. Remember the range is small, but you can move and fire with them. Unlike a pistol, also strength 4 base as most axe throwers will be without stat increases, it also can be thrown every turn as opposed to every other turn. The pistol and the stars/knives are 15gc each. Drop the Throwing Axes at say 20gc maybe 25gc if it still feels too powerful and you've pretty much got a working item. Add in the Axe Thrower skill so as it acts exactly like the Knife Fighter skill excepta maximum of 2 instead of 3 shots and it keeps it balanced and makes the viability of stars/knives to axes as thrown weapons still an even pick. 2 at plus 1 strength or 3 at normal strength. It's a hard decision to make and comes down to skill base and stat advances on the relative warriors. To marauders with them, they have few other weapons and again no access to the shooting lists, HOWEVER, youc ould balance it by making in aspecial marauder warband skills list (in much teh same way the orcs have an orc list, dwarfs a dwarf list, skaven a skaven list et al) a special Axe Thrower Skill, and make it akin to say Powerful build in the Shadow warriors List witha maximum of 2 Marauders being able to take the skill at any one time.

What do you all think?

Cheers and have a good day,

Ram.
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PostSubject: Re: Throwing Axes!   Today at 0:54

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